13:12:01 If Windows 7 is retro computing despite being 60% of windows as-is today still.. then I am 100% done with $currentModern 13:12:06 njsg: 13:12:56 likely closer to 80% but still 13:14:08 i mean my system has been rendered windows 7 incompatible and i have no idea how that happened since I have never updated efi and am using the same media i been using for a decade 13:16:41 cause Windows 8+ is Windows 7 except for what they changed/fucked up plus added now windows 11 is far more destructive against NT vs 10 13:17:38 windows 10 from useage feel and testing alone in compairson felt like a UX fucked NT6 build until LTSC 2021 builds 13:18:02 then it went from feeling and acting like sub-optimal windows to sub-optimal windows is in direct conflict with new tech 13:23:54 nsITobin: wait was that to be interpreted with modus ponens or modus tollens? 13:25:48 (I can't say I've encountered a system that can't run WinNT 6.1; Windows 4, in the other hand, one time I tried with a machine that showed an A20 gate error, but didn't inspect further) 13:26:49 (ruined my plans of seeing how 4.10 performed with DDR3, but I continued on a DDR2 with SSD. Setup progress bars flew. Now drivers were an issue... past the (non-NT) installation environment, it'd need a bunch of tweaks.) 13:30:37 Hi nsITobin 13:33:01 njsg MS blocked Windows 7 updates for everything after Skylarke (gen-6) and later AMD too. Chipset and integrated gfx drivers too so it might run but does so like sh*t. There are some workarounds but missing drivers are missing drivers. 13:34:50 ah, Redmond being Redmond :-) 13:35:51 So is that the KB312108 treatment for 7? Or they're not even sharing these updates through extended support agreements? 13:48:23 Intel and AMD stopped providing drivers for post gen-6. I am pretty sure every Ryzen is unsupported too. 13:51:20 amd stopp Win 8 support too very early with gfx drivers. I always recommended Nvidia for Windows afterwards because of this. My personal revenge and it did cost them a few sales :) 13:51:47 Not that I love nvidia but the Windows drivers are tons better. 14:02:08 unsupported but up until a few years ago worked flawlessly 14:02:53 frg_Away: may wanna reeval that since nvidia drivers and firmware have repeatedly resulted in flaws that destroy your hardware 14:03:47 wufuc worked well 14:03:53 nsITobin I recommend them only for Windows 14:04:10 open source nvidia drivers are a shit show 14:04:43 they had em working fairly well and then something or another radically changed 14:04:43 The only issue I am aware of are the bad chips 2007/2008 which self destructed over time. 14:05:04 frg_Away: modern video cards live and die by their firmware and their firmware is Modern Software 14:05:07 do the math 14:05:19 but doing so may overclock your gpu to hell 14:05:23 because of an errOr 14:05:48 Personally I am super happy with an RTX 2060 Super. Last generation running 7 to 11. 14:05:58 For Linux RX 580 14:06:52 most of this tho is fallout from pandemic era hardware and software .. the REAL danger is the persistant crap practices employed during the pandemic that resulted in crap hardware and software.. that persisting is the real issue not that nvidia won't admit responsibility for millions of dollars of hardware from a time when gpus were thousands of dollars a piece 14:06:59 it could destroy nvidia to do so 14:07:41 and a bankrupt nvidia means no rmas or refunds lol 14:08:24 nsITobin Intel high end gen 13 and 14 are self destructing now too. 14:08:32 frg_Away: I heard about that 14:08:54 i was gonna go intel after amd sucks at LGA and firmware.. figures intel does too 14:09:47 on one hand, broadcom is bad at firmware, OTOH it's not self-destruct. Although it might mean that, in practice, it never works properly, to begin with... 14:09:56 suppose I will just see if I can get an x570 and never ever EVER let amorory crate get ahold of it 14:10:10 njsg: broadcom is gonna ruin virtualization for me 14:10:21 i specifically want a virtualized pc in a window 14:10:28 which is NOT the usecase for kvm 14:10:37 and virtualbox is junk 14:11:33 vmware aside from hyperv+mstsc are the top virtualization platforms for computer in a computer style virtualzation.. kvm is for server cluster ssh maybe vnc style virtualzation 14:11:41 and broadcom is gonna ruin it 14:11:45 Personally I am at about gen 3 to 6 and don't plan to update hardware. Current Supermicro workstation boards don't suit me becuase of ipmi. Xeons are hot sh*t show and anything running only 10 and 11 can stay at the dealers. 14:11:48 AND make it service based 14:11:55 perpetual licensing is gone 14:11:58 they say 14:13:03 frg_Away: My hardware is ~2017-2018 era and it is showing its age and has had hard life as a Dalek Battle Computer and manual tinderbox for years on end 14:13:26 nsITobin: that's going to be confusing, now I have to learn to tell Broadcom apart from Oracle? 14:14:01 njsg: its easy.. oracle ruined everything virtualization in the 2010s.. broadcom is ruining it in the 2020s 14:14:04 ;) 14:15:55 îf it were not for SeaMonkey I would probably be out of the PC game. I can do shopping on a cheap used laptop. Linux is too fragmented and the driver model is mehh. Gems like gnome 4 not even accounted for... 14:17:51 I'll probably at least try some BSD... 14:18:27 I am still gonna roll my own 14:18:36 the way things are going, it looks like freedesktop will be forcing desktop-centric designs upon everyone, and then there is systemd and the like, that's slowly turning Linux into something completely different 14:18:53 which is fine if you're into that, but to me it looks it's becoming less and less of the kind of system I find usable 14:19:33 forcing half-maked microsoft/apple like designs 14:19:44 i don't see that as the same as desktop-centric 14:19:49 cause microsoft and apple aren't 14:20:23 sunday~ 14:20:38 guys, get RISC-V running TempleOS .D 14:20:40 :D_ 14:20:48 AGH I hate those FLAAAAAAT laptop keyboards 14:20:53 tomman: SAME 14:21:04 I mean freedesktop tends to be centered about design and features for desktop environments, and then these get promoted as a standard for anything GUI or even anything at all on Linux 14:21:21 njsg: I thought Freedesktop was centered about "what GNOME needs" these days 14:21:22 njsg: its a weak whatwg at this point 14:21:38 controlled by gnome 14:21:45 and ibm 14:22:24 seriously tomman njsg you will find RedHat at the center of a whole lot of what linux users did NOT want and still don't 14:22:39 next step is going to be "let's go with wayland" (at this rate, I wonder why have they been extensively migrating some xorg projects to different build systems, if their goal is to cease xorg development in favor of wayland?) 14:22:48 Wayland is permabanned at this house 14:22:54 X11 is the die where I'm dying o 14:23:12 some people out there still believe that only freedesktop does X development, and that their own decisions regarding wayland and X11 means that the GUI future is wayland. 14:23:14 already in progress.. $majorDistros and $ourExperienceDE already dropping x11 14:23:17 very rare times I ban a software platform at my premises, but there is enough justification for this case 14:24:02 I wonder if NetBSD's post on Xorg means upstream is the reason why upstreaming changes is difficult. 14:24:11 tomman: linux and other open source software is the vast majority of everything the global infrastructure runs on.. sure may be a windows client more than not but its almost always a linux server or some other unix 14:24:21 didn't NetBSD forked Xorg into Xenocara? 14:24:25 we can't let the nebuious them have linux too 14:24:37 good luck with that, kids these days hate working with "ooooold ewww" code 14:24:55 especially if written in unsexy languages like C 14:25:26 tomman: no idea, I only know they do active development and have support beyond what Xorg does 14:25:26 tomman: bsd is gonna bsd tho and modify it for only them selves.. I intend to do a similar effort and also I don't want it to be a choice between Debian-ish and OpenBSD 14:25:31 to get X 14:25:43 because in that equasion i would just give up 14:26:25 I'll stick to Debian, the day they force Waytrash on me, I'll stick to the previous unsabotaged stable until it goes EOL and beyond 14:26:36 then I'll either switch to Windows 9x or drop computers forever 14:26:44 tomman: they will force it just like systemd 14:26:50 its only a matter of time 14:26:53 banned here is dbus, btw. 14:26:57 Ironically, I have no problem with systemd 14:27:06 don't mess with me and I'll let you live 14:27:14 systemd has obeyed that here, so it gets a pass 14:27:17 not because of dbus itself, but because once it's enabled in one tool somewhere or even just installed, a bunch of software will insist on starting or demanding a bus 14:27:26 but Wayland starts right off the bat with "your use case doesn't exist, go away" 14:27:29 tomman: if you do nothing but start stop and write the odd ini file its fine.. anything more complex or custom and its a nightmare because it assumes ultiment authority 14:27:41 I'm not a sysadmin, thankfully :) 14:28:27 there are things I like (simple syntax to define a service), things I hate (systemd documentation SUUUUCKS), but so far... the bits I have to interact with haven't pissed me off. YET. 14:29:18 systemd approach: let's consider there is only one login prompt per seat. (did you just get rid of one of the interesting features of linux of having several "virtual terminals", and possibly even several X servers running?) - again, this might suit some, but really makes it hard to use the system when I expect groups and user to determine privileges, not what consolekit says. might be configurable, but 14:29:24 it's still something I have no use for. 14:29:43 still, perhaps I should have a glance about systemd configuration, although I have the faint recollection of that not being necessarily stable 14:30:04 of course your use case is not my use case 14:30:16 the only time a system being systemd caused me bigger trouble was when I wanted to add one more getty, set myself to just edit inittab and then "uh, this doesn't work?" 14:30:18 and I do believe that systemd's trying to become "jack of all trades, master of none" is dumb 14:30:33 but seriousy, modernization on that area was severely needed 14:30:40 turns out systemd has a completely different way to set the system to be usable from a terminal 14:31:52 well coreutils goes rust so more fun :) 14:34:33 Rust! All! The! Things! 14:34:43 but not CPUs, please, I don't want another Raptor Lake :P 14:44:15 well we are gonna need a linux kernel fork that excludes rust 14:44:22 that's a ready made project 14:44:31 surprised no one is doing it 15:06:18 frg_Away: do you know where the vsinstaller for 2019 has gotten off to 15:06:49 cause the only thing not listed as not-available is a cpp redist 15:09:44 This one? 15:09:46 https://download.visualstudio.microsoft.com/download/pr/93f24e82-778c-46ae-92f9-8d3010ecd011/a5da04d78b1f94ab145a365733476df7a1ec6219fa17f09c7e2f3c7cd74d9c9e/vs_Community.exe 15:09:47 https://www.computerbase.de/downloads/systemtools/entwicklung/visual-studio-2019/ 15:24:46 yeah that one 15:25:07 idc what the redist license is on it i am gonna put it up on files dot xulorg 15:25:24 besides its just a stub anyway 15:29:56 I am attempting to build some windows VMs for sm and quantum development 15:30:21 and one to run my design bs 15:51:45 I dunno it is quite unnerving to be based on things you know will crumble in 6 months to a few years but that is how things are these days and if I don't put in a major bunch of effort my systems are just gonna decay and become inoperable and while others may be able to deal far better I know it isn't a picnic either 15:52:53 in either case* 16:42:58 is it wrong to think github should not be engaged in advanced social networking and ecommerce/donation processors? 16:43:03 nfdeskj 16:43:05 THAT'S IT 16:43:32 I bet one day github will just be an extension of the microsoft store 16:44:07 part of the benefits to being a microsoft developer for windows and linux 16:44:28 if that ain't the long term strat i dunno what is 18:14:27 nsITobin: XBox Gold will include the social networking part of github, XBox Developer will include the VCS 18:15:04 XBox Developer Plus Cloud will include "github pages" and issue tracking and reactions 18:15:27 XBox Developer Plus Cloud Platinum includes the full MSDN subscription 18:31:08 does Visual Studio have achievements now? :D 18:41:17 tomman: YES .. or it did for a minute you have microsoft account points 19:50:28 nighty night 19:50:38 peace 19:51:10 I love gogs' ability to auto update mirrors on a schedule 19:51:20 tho i wish i could hide the org 21:25:23 tomman: oh, no, I was imagining the future 21:25:52 njsg: imagining or extrapolating 21:25:53 "Achievement Unlocked: You created a new Win32 Application" 21:26:05 "Achievement Unlocked: You single-stepped a instruction on the debugger" 21:26:08 "Achievement Unlocked: Your first off-by-one" 21:26:16 i think new win32 apps are an anti-achievement according to microsoft 21:26:16 "Achievement Unlocked: You crashed the runtime in a unusual way" 21:26:17 "Achievement Unlocked: ICE" 21:26:46 "Achievement Unlocked: You imported your first header file" 21:26:57 "Achievement Unlocked: You imported your tenth header file" 21:27:32 all achievement systems are extrapolated from Omo Chao on the Sega Dreamcast 21:27:34 "Achievement Unlocked: Stack overflow when counting header imports: you did your first infinitely recursive import, and we don't do tail recursion in this code." 21:28:13 Achievement unlocked: Your post on stack overflow has 12 posts but no one actually answered your question 21:29:26 and of course the ultimate achievement: You ran the Visual Studio uninstaller 21:30:38 (or, well, "stack underflow" in IA-32 and amd64?) 22:24:04 njsg smarty the php templating language .. now has a depednacy on a syphony plugin 22:24:24 and has been PSR'd 22:43:29 okay its optional unless you don't have the mbstring extension .. also looking at the code its been completely refactored into a modern lib dropping many cool features I intend to use so guess I am forking smarty