03:47:52 <nsITobin> created a w3c account so i could contribute maybe in whatever individuals are allowed to do.. can't do shit without binding to a github account
03:48:19 <nsITobin> GITHUB IS THE ONLY PLACE ONE CAN PARTICIPATE ON WEB STANDARDS AND ANYONE BANNED OR LIMITED FROM GITHUB CANNOT PARTICIPATE
03:53:41 <Harzilein> nsITobin: heh, yeah, that bugged me about some things in the past as well
04:24:06 <nsITobin> Harzilein: I am gonna get banned from the W3C
04:24:11 <nsITobin> well i hope i don't
04:24:16 <nsITobin> but it is how these things goe
04:24:18 <nsITobin> go
04:25:22 <nsITobin> W3C sits on their ass cancelling their specs handing everything off to whatwg.. google writes the specs microsoft gatekeeps the specs and helps impl in chromium apple sometimes cares and mozilla just agrees and obeys
04:25:44 <nsITobin> as google's protocol and microsoft's old internet explorer plans are rolled into chromium
04:26:03 <nsITobin> Harzilein: i understand why and how I got so bad before..
04:27:22 <nsITobin> this feeling of such intense outrage at it.. its barely containable and spreads through me..
04:28:14 <nsITobin> xhtml/1.0 was superceeded by WHATWG's HTML5 living standard back in 2018
04:28:18 <nsITobin> i was unaware of this
04:29:11 <nsITobin> if they actually expect me to believe HTML5 is a superior specification vs anything XML .. well they can just ban me then
08:49:01 <njsg> who on their sane mind would replace a stable standard with a "living standard"?
08:49:20 <njsg> WHATWG is pretty much the browser wars, but open-sourced.
08:49:44 <njsg> whatever argument they may have won't go with me ever since I saw the mess they created with fetch()
08:50:03 <njsg> they decided to change defaults in backwards-incompatible ways, just because it somehow made more sense in another way
08:50:14 <njsg> result: sites breaking because they assume the new default
08:50:38 <njsg> this is, I think, the kind of thing you just don't do without versioning or without different function names
15:07:08 <Contact_> pluto.tv controls do not work in seamonkey browser
15:07:59 <Contact_> live365.com controls do not work in seamonkey browser
15:34:51 <nsITobin> https://www.neowin.net/editorials/more-choice-more-innovation-a-chrome-sell-off-could-be-good-for-users/
15:36:34 <nsITobin> welll.. they still miss the point and did not call out that an industry run by five companies 3 of which use the same browser engine the fourth is the precursor to that engine and mozilla is out for parity if not parody of it all.. This is not a healthy ecosystem regardless of if google continues to own chrome. Microsoft, as I been saying for a while now, has been gearing up for this.
15:37:09 <nsITobin> not unless SeaMonkey and even the moonpeople are not included at the same level
15:38:02 <nsITobin> least they did sorda at the end mention Microsoft being at their old tricks
15:38:18 <nsITobin> but Neowin was there at the time they should know .. and know more than this
16:02:11 <njsg> maybe Microsoft should just open source Windows NT and hand WINAPI and .NET to WHATWG
16:08:18 <nsITobin> njsg: you know what.. I agree.
16:12:12 <njsg> I mean, maybe then the similarities would be more evident.
16:12:41 <nsITobin> njsg: it isn't like we don't have the windows source code for nt4 and xpsp1 and server rtm
16:12:46 <nsITobin> its just illegal
16:12:48 <nsITobin> LOL
16:13:43 <njsg> I did expect Microsoft to jump into "oh you want standard formats, not open and free formats? we'll get this through ISO!" (well, maybe I didn't see it'd be ISO specifically, but it was evident they just had to standardize the MSO formats to fight the push for e.g. OpenDocument)
16:14:29 <njsg> I did not expect a visible chunk of the community which fought for standards on the web and interoperability with other browsers to just start becoming the next Microsoft regarding compatibility
16:15:55 <Harzilein> <njsg> maybe Microsoft should just open source Windows NT and hand WINAPI and .NET to WHATWG
16:16:39 <Harzilein> njsg: probably as easy for them to pivot to some azure-flavoured linux at this point as it was abandoning ecma pre-win32 apis.
16:21:51 <nsITobin> i see no real reason they couldn't opensource Windows 3.1 and WinNT3x
16:22:07 <nsITobin> or ibm to opensource os/2
16:23:45 <nsITobin> i mean design patents and rights should hardly be a practical matter for 3x
16:34:46 <njsg> they could always do a closed-source open-source release
16:34:48 <njsg> like winamp
16:36:02 <nsITobin> i am angry about winamp.. this development does not in any way whip any llamas asses its just a middle finger
16:38:37 <njsg> they effectively made it illegal to contribute to winamp, which must be some sort of an achievement in logic
17:36:25 <nsITobin> Notscape Browseagator
17:36:41 <nsITobin> wonder if THAT would get me sued by verizon
17:37:33 <nsITobin> while mozilla's USE of nsis is pretty pathetic when compared to full xpinstall.. nsis IS a nice installer
17:38:55 <frg_Away> asd far as I know IBM lost the OS/2 source. Don't think that ecomstation has access to it.
17:47:54 <nsITobin> lost it.. last I heard it was rights and patents was the reason before
17:54:09 <frg_Away> Initially yes. MS and Adobe stuff.
17:56:39 <frg_Away> In any case they will not lifta finger to change anytrhing here. It is IBM as in bad IBM.
17:57:39 <frg_Away> Not the company I worked for long ago after school. Glad I never tried to get employed,
18:01:07 <nsITobin> my vision of IBM that i fondly remember is the Aptiva, the PS/2 line, ThinkPad, and every fuckin till at a store being an IBM Cash Resgister..
18:01:54 <nsITobin> they are still in service today in places
18:02:37 <nsITobin> and the places that switch to touch screen systems that go DING DONG and boo doO DOOOOO at you just sucked for like months after one store after another
18:02:46 <tomman> So... dead, gone, Lenovo, and Toshiba
18:03:11 <tomman> (IBM PoS solutions were sold to Toshiba about a decade ago)
18:03:44 <tomman> printers got spun off to Lexmark, while Ricoh managed to pick up some bits
18:03:44 <nsITobin> is toshiba even a real brand anymore or just one like the sad fate of ARRRREEEEE SEEEEEEEAAAA AAAAAYYYYYYY
18:04:04 <tomman> Toshiba, yes, they still exist despite their less than spectacular Asian accounting
18:04:23 <tomman> ATMs went to Diebold
18:04:29 <tomman> all x86 servers also went to Lenovo
18:04:46 <tomman> HDDs went to Hitachi (now Western Digital)
18:05:26 <nsITobin> Lenovo has moved past IBM's tooling and even its aesthetic and functionality in its design.. Not really impressed with their modern offerings.. anything with a pseudo-chiclet keyboard is not a true ThinkPad no matter how many red nipples they use
18:06:45 <nsITobin> only think I think about when I see one is how much more useful it would be with a thinkpad keyboard or even just an older model laptop keyboard let alone that one that had like real keycaps just shorter
18:07:32 <nsITobin> I can type on the older laptop keyboards but chicklet and pseudo chicklet that lenovo uses now.. not so much
18:07:44 <tomman> my 21 year IBM Thinkcentre M50 and Thinkpad T40 are still working fine~
18:07:59 <tomman> (Well, the T40 is a bit flaky, but the M50 works as long as you don't fondle it too much)
18:08:21 <nsITobin> well thermal damage over time is a thing especially in craptops
18:08:51 <nsITobin> the processor will mechanically fail eventually if not some other component by nature of being high temp laptop gear
18:09:45 <nsITobin> the fact it has lasted well past 3-5 years is a remarkable testiment to true IBM design the one that made IBM a net-positive company for the world
18:09:58 <nsITobin> despite being a standard oil type of monstrosity
18:10:03 <frg_Away> nsITobin problem with the T4x is the ati chip. Comes loose and needs to be reflowed. Fixed in later T42 batches. The 15" is not affected that much because you cant flex it easy
18:11:10 <frg_Away> Anyway the W530 X230 T430 and P50 stll rule even if Lenovo is on it.
18:12:00 <nsITobin> i am sure the rest of the tech in more mondern lenovo products is fine but the keyboard .. look at me my fingers never shut the fuck up lol i need good typing capability
18:13:39 <frg_Away> Only have a problem with the Caps Lock too near the A and not indented at the right side.
18:14:21 <nsITobin> my daskeyboard is starting to fail well indiviual switches are having occasional issues..
18:16:22 <frg_Away> The P50 one feels old style. x30 are a bit mushy but not bad. And I like the backlight.
18:16:27 <nsITobin> also https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZgMAAOSwG9tjrfjA/s-l1600.webp if that was in black it would be sleek even today
18:16:52 <nsITobin> just swap out the green dotmatrix for a small lcd and good to go
18:18:31 <nsITobin> https://www.ebay.com/itm/285091726300?_trksid=p4481478.c101506.m1851
18:18:42 <nsITobin> there's a complete one with the full size keyboard
18:19:43 <tomman> holy hell, you can buy a new low end cash register for that here
18:20:32 <tomman> (legally you can't use that thing here unless it comes with a updated "tax memory" chip/software, which IBM won't supply to you and the tax authority here won't approve it either)
18:20:39 <nsITobin> but a cash register is not a pos system
18:21:37 <frg_Away> My 2 main systems still have the model M. Made in 1990 or so and still good :) I don't miss the Windows key.
18:22:04 <nsITobin> i miss having a runbox
18:22:16 <nsITobin> i need a runbox
18:22:48 <nsITobin> anyone know of a good linux standalone runbox
18:22:55 <nsITobin> not a metasearch bar
18:23:01 <nsITobin> box command run.
19:14:27 <njsg> <+nsITobin> wonder if THAT would get me sued by verizon <-- Or by the GAIN, or is that part of Verizon now?
19:39:12 <nsITobin> well there went three hours of experimental work gone in a power flash
19:39:44 <nsITobin> the greatest mystory in the universe is "Why in the HELL is Tobin STILL trying to do things"
19:40:29 <nsITobin> also fuck ram drives
19:40:38 <nsITobin> seriously
19:41:27 <nsITobin> the inventer of dynamic ram is an asshole
19:41:35 <nsITobin> lol
19:42:19 <nsITobin> memory that forgets.. honestly
20:40:39 <frg_Away> static ram was very expensive then and still is compared to dram. And still need juice to not forget.
20:44:20 <nsITobin> true
20:44:22 <nsITobin> CORE MEMORY
20:45:01 <nsITobin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic-core_memory
20:45:07 <nsITobin> that's the ticket
20:45:13 <nsITobin> ffs lol
20:48:36 <nsITobin> tomman: does google search even just on the web tab feel like your query is being sent through an AI model?
20:48:54 <nsITobin> cause it doesn't feel the same as it used to.. more abstract results instead of keyword matches
20:48:57 <frg_Away> I think its ferro ram these days. Still available.
20:49:20 <nsITobin> how about you frg_Away like started maybe 4-6 months ago maybe steadily getting worse
20:50:33 <njsg> nsITobin: tomman: I need to compare with the search plugin file I'm used to, I'm now seeing different behaviour, it's possible there's something different when e.g. the user requests 100 results per page
20:50:39 <frg_Away> nsITobin. I rarely use google these days. What interests me is usually on the 10th page and buried after ad ridden junk. Startpage and ddg are mostly ok for me.
20:50:50 <frg_Away> quality has delined in the last year.
20:51:00 <njsg> nsITobin: tomman: there's also that thing making the rounds on mastodon about utm=14 or what it is, have we talked about that one before?
20:51:07 <njsg> or was it udm=14
20:52:27 <njsg> udm, not utm. https://pol.social/@speaktrap/113638328008469506 https://mastodon.au/@quokka1/113638054158860310
20:52:31 <nsITobin> https://udm14.com/
20:52:50 <nsITobin> that's just the web tab
20:53:00 <njsg> nsITobin: I didn't test this myself, but if you're not using that, you may want to try and compare. and tell us how it fares
20:53:08 <njsg> wait, what, what's "web tab" in this context?
20:53:21 <nsITobin> All Images Video Shopping Maps News Web More
20:53:41 <nsITobin> udm=14 means the web search tab cause the AI tab is default
20:53:51 <njsg> ah. wait, there's an AI tab?
20:54:02 <njsg> or is that All now?
20:54:14 <nsITobin> but the AI tab is just gemini some sideblocks and web results.. the web results them SELVES have become more abstract less keyword matchy
20:54:19 <nsITobin> yes All
20:54:55 <njsg> I don't even see a web tab, but without my usual search plugin what I get is heavily localized...
20:55:31 <njsg> and udm=14 doesn't work :-D
20:55:58 <nsITobin> ah US only google
20:56:35 <nsITobin> njsg: look under More
20:56:50 <nsITobin> https://www.google.com/search?udm=14&q=bash%20loop
20:56:55 <nsITobin> njsg:
20:57:11 <njsg> I don't have a more, and udm=14 is actively removed by them when I try with that
20:57:20 <nsITobin> wow
20:58:01 <njsg> that URL leads me to https://www.google.com/search?q=bash+loop
20:58:20 <nsITobin> https://i.ibb.co/9tHFv0k/image.png
20:58:34 <njsg> I'll need to sit down debugging this, I'm curious about what is even going on
21:15:17 <therube> looks to work - in FF, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/udm-14/
21:27:24 <therube> & i'm seeing what njsg is seeing
21:30:05 <therube> you think the U
21:30:11 <therube> UA has any bearing?
21:30:25 <nsITobin> yes
21:30:26 <nsITobin> it would
21:30:28 <njsg> either that or geolocation
21:30:33 <nsITobin> google is nortorious for that
21:30:36 <nsITobin> both
21:30:42 <nsITobin> or a/b testing
21:30:46 <njsg> a glance at the Ars Technica article and I see they say the web tab is new too
21:30:50 <nsITobin> random regional a/b testing
21:30:59 <njsg> so it could be that it's not shown when there's no AI feature enabled
21:31:10 <njsg> which means the junkier results I've been seeing might be just google being google
21:31:10 <nsITobin> lucky bastard
21:31:30 <nsITobin> when i said AI i did mean AI in the search algro its self
21:31:37 <njsg> duckduckgo went with something similar, theirs was both linked to the search locale and language and dependent on either UA or browser features
21:32:14 <nsITobin> cause the results just don't feel as relevant to my query like .. its more abstract like i been saying
21:32:21 <njsg> now what we need is an open specification for a way to exchange searches and their results between engines and the browser so that the browser could put these in a sidebar
21:32:34 <njsg> both making it fit neatly in the browser UI and allowing client-side meta search
21:32:47 <njsg> hmm, I wonder if there has ever been something like that...
21:32:52 <nsITobin> njsg: why does that even exist.. i mean HOW MUCH of the spec does it really take for an input box a couple of buttons and some hyperlinks and a paragraph each
21:32:56 <nsITobin> seriously
21:33:01 <nsITobin> this is outfuckingragious
21:33:16 <njsg> [I seriously remember this feature, to make it clear, what I'm talking about has existed]
21:33:37 <nsITobin> it doesn't require a god damned television-gameengine-as-a-service software to display some web search results
21:34:56 <nsITobin> OH DEAR GOD ITS NOT ACTUALLY HAPPENING LALALALAALLA SEARCH RESULTS WITHOUT GOBS OF JAVASCRIPT JUST AREN'T POSSIBLE.. DO NOT SEE AN EXAMPLE THAT DOESN'T EXIST HERE https://addons.palemoon.org/search/?terms=youtube
21:34:57 <njsg> random screenshot https://i0.wp.com/www.joelonsoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/2000/11/Netscape_Sidebar.jpg
21:34:57 <nsITobin> heh
21:35:45 <njsg> now not sure if the meta search was implemented in the sidebar, if it was a separate window, or if that part was just a mockup, that I don't recall anymore
21:35:51 <nsITobin> njsg: yeah so why does the search sidebar still exist even though it can't DO that anymore?
21:37:36 <nsITobin> ... at this stage every website should be sidebarable.. given they all have .. what the hell was the buzzword.. responsible layouts to mobile form.. zoom it out a bit and its basically sidebar materal..
21:38:08 <nsITobin> Mozilla is dancing around this simple revelation with their CUI sidebar services thingy they been doing
21:38:33 <nsITobin> but as always they miss the direct point to tie their concept together into something people might actually like for more than five minutes
21:49:38 <therube> & just as oddly, https://www.google.com/search?q=%abc&udm=14 works in PM
21:49:51 <therube> UA overrides do not seem to help in SM
22:01:22 <nsITobin> it works in seamonkey for me
22:01:27 <nsITobin> but i am in the us
22:01:48 <nsITobin> Pale Moon has its own overrides as you know....... you pinged out lol
23:13:41 <njsg> I'm seeing this with JS disabled - or so I think -, didn't try to enable it.