*.banana *.split

nsITobin: re: linux needing a windows explorer shell, you've seen Konkeror from KDE 3, right? :-P

yes

(not to be confused with conqueror!)

i am aware

but it was NOT identically functioning

(what became of that one?)

but at the time design patents were still valid

IME most of the time at least back then what wasn't identical could end up being better

kde3 was very windows like

no doubt

oh? when I saw patents mentioned for desktop UI design, it was to explain the move from that taskbar+menubar layout

but qt is quirky

wine explorer.exe . easy :p

wine's own utilities barely function

now does IE5 come with the file explorer part or not?

it doesn't HAVE to be win32

(for UNIX, I know it does not have MSCC)

# Appears as ARMANDO

ie5 can work as a file explorer but is not the default

Unless I'm misremembering from last year

not really big on internet explorer .. windows explorer

Wait, ie5 made it to unix?

that... actually poses an interesting question: if it does have some file browsing ability, how easy is it to make it choke because of e.g. unsupported chars, names that are identical if you don't differentiate case, etc

Tekk: yes, Internet Explorer 5 for UNIX

Huh. I didn't think it made it to 5

shell update and subsiquent refinements before dui replaced mshtml and activex controls in vista-explorer didn't offer any real new functionality for file management vs the original explorer design

but nothing on linux is as solid as managing files in any version of windows explorer

it can be close

or similar

or even pretty good but NOT identically

er, as solid as windows explorer?

isn't windows explorer one of the components that's less capable of dealing with stuff like the NTFS case sensitivity, or was that notepad?

when explorer is stable it is stellar for file management.. not so much on file TRANSFER but managing is great

i could make seamonkey basically .. an explorer analoge but it wouldn't be 2.53 it would have to be either 1.9.2 or 1.8.1

add a window manager and a taskbar and there is your netscape desktop

more likely 1.8.1 cause it is sane rational and modular

and because seamonkey project kept it alive beyond its prime to make it last to current compilers with just a few patches on linux

explorer's limitations are largely artifical

as are those in ntfs

now is this as bad without OE QuoteFix as the windows counterpart? betaarchive.com/imageupload/1253709835.or.656251.jpg

ntfs actually supports way more than is exposed because of the need to maintain dos compatibility

OKAY

betaarchive needs to not use cloudflare

why is there a windows logo? betaarchive.com/imageupload/1253699034.or.843751.jpg

because this is windows internet explorer code

and enough of advanced api and shell to run on unix

that ncommander asshole did a video about it

unix ie5 was a special beast

njsg: essentually this basically proves windows could have ported its entire user experience to unix .. and could have shared a codebase

No idea about non-NT, but NT... well, NT did allow a full POSIX subsystem

although I'd wager that for it to have some sort of success, they'd need to get sales representatives out of the loop

njsg: Oh no, it was the opposite

At least that's what I've heard

NT is greater than Windows that enslaves it

The POSIX subsystem was tacked on purely because there were some sweet government contracts up which listed a posix-compatible OS in their requirements

it is barely posix

Which is why it just sort of shuffled along as a zombie until they finally ripped it out in Vista or 7 or whatever it was

But enough to get the contract :)

Tekk: was that the bundled POSIX subsystem or the one that's installable afterwards?

I don't think there was the concept of an installable one when NT first came out, was there?

IIRC there was something about NT shipping with an incomplete POSIX subsystem, that wasn't the same as e.g. Interix

Like 3.51 came out with OS/2, dos, win32, and posix runtimes I think

at least at some point "Windows Services for UNIX" became a thing, and what I recall is that not being the same as the partial subsystem

but that's a faint memory, so I might well be wrong

microsoft has repeatedly failed to make a viable AND marketable non-win32 nt subsystem

I think it was just the posix subsystem ripped out by default and made an installable component

so they finally gave up and shoving hypervisor tech in to pretend to be like kvm

the one thing I'm sure is that they tried to sell an incompatible korn shell as "fully compatible" :-P

Because I thiiiink I remember reading some MS paper from the 2000's whining about how NT is just as good a base for apache and perl as linux is if you ignore the whole 'free' bit

Or maybe it was later and apache/php..

nsITobin: That was so disappointing

Tekk: do you like the php

well pre-8 php

nsITobin: Worse

When I write web stuff I do perl :p

Though there was that one time I wrote a cgi app in x86 asm because my friend didn't think you could.

and I have to say it does tell a lot about MSFT as a company that they had (1) an apparently clueless sales representative sent to a tech conference (2) had said representative double-down on "no, it's fully compatible with Korn Shell" when the person challenging that was David Korn

i don't know any perl.. which is a lie I tell my self

I was trying to write some perl tonight actually, but it fizzled (not perl's fault)

Census data just sucks

njsg: I never heard that :D

Tekk: web search "microsoft korn shell"; it's on gopher too

Tekk: do you think we need to definitively split the world wide web from the corperate walled garden openweb?

or gopher.quux.org:70/Humor%20and%20Fun/Microsoft_KSH.txt|/MBOX-MESSAGE/1

before everything is google quic

nsITobin: I maintain a gopher space, refuse to enable https on my site, and my average page size is something like 60k

You can probably takea guess :)

create the web:// protocol which is based on http/1.1 over tls.. main change is no plain version of the protocol but self-signed certs are accepted as valid for connection integrety

I've generally resisted gemini though. That one just doesn't feel like it gets me anything I care about over gopher

gemini doesn't understand

njsg: Ngl I almost feel bad for the MS guy

Tekk: also, just in case you haven't heard of that one either: ever heard of the 500-mile e-mail story?

I'm not sure I could recognize rob pike at a glance, no way I'd have a chance with Korn.

That I do know

Oh. That explains why my gopher browser didn't wanna come up at first. Floodgap is down.

but yeah Tekk while it may be a meaningless gesture i think it would be a good idea to simply deem ones self a standard's body and write new specs/rfcs based on current impl of classical tech..

a funny one it is, also resembles all of these debugging and problem-finding moments that are so frustrating "oh how can this *not* work" and then you figure out the cause is something so... curious

nsITobin: The suckless folks had http/0.8 at one point.

So there's precedent

i don't agree with a lot of what suckless does but i certainly agree with them doing it

if that makes sense

Nah, that tracks.

It's a pretty severe aesthetic.

But basically your idea is the only reason I have a website at all still. For a long time I only maintained a gopher hole, but then I had the realization that I can still just write web pages that aren't awful.

Probably due for some CSS brushing though.

I need to start adding some content to my places too :-P

content is impossible

BinOC has existed since 2001.. how much content have i had.. some art.. some programs for a few years.. some extensions.. and like 15 articals..

*most* of what's on the site is just the books I've read and the yearly old computer challenge posts. I also have a post about moving to seamonkey that I wrote years ago, which is part of what prompted my coming in.

nsITobin: can I trade an "impossible" for an "imaginary"?

NOT REALLY THAT IMPRESSIVE

nsITobin: (yes, math joke incoming)

Since I reread that post and went "Wait, compatibility lines up with 60? The latest release I just installed said it was in line with 60" :)

seamonkey is lying when it says its gecko 60

internally

I was just going off of the release notes.

Which mention it as the rough compatibility

ah well that confused me when it first happened

it's based on 56 but really close to 60 now, and even with some more stuff

SeaMonkey 2.57 doesn't have features 2.53 has

from a xul perspective it is 60 except for like a handful of bits.. webcompat wise its higher but also spottier

And for the most part I'm comfortable. Spacehey works, youtube mostly-ish works, stuff I stumble into on wiby mostly works.

Got waterfox set up for the rest after the stupid mozilla own-goals of the last couple months.

some things are harder to backport and require more work

also, fun tidbit that Outlook webmail worked with a UA override until some days ago

Nice.

if you uttered "I'm IE 6" very nicely into its ear, it'd give you OWA

I need to set up a UA switcher soon probably.

And if I manage to stick around with seamonkey this time it might be nice to look into some backports, though that does ruin my commitment to never touch C++ :p

one day I will have a stripped down firefox fork out there.. basically gonna strip it down to as close to functionally 3.6 as possible and layoutwise as well.. if i can manage it .. possible Firefox 2/3 aesthetic.. if i did it.. people would use it and use it as a basis to create a new geenration of forks.. unfortently and as you may be aware the masses and specifics have really pissed me off these past several years so THEY are gonna have to wait

in case you're not aware: SM can do domain-specific UA overrides

until I help SeaMonkey more.

domain-specific overrides do come in handy when some UA string magically makes a site work

I didn't know that at all

njsg: "Site-Specific User Agent Overrides"

I'd also be kinda curious about the diff between seamonkey gecko and goanna since those should theoretically be pretty similar, I think

;)

Both firefox 56 gecko with backports (afaik? I don't know much about goanna)

adding a preference with general.useragent.override.domain.tld as a string pref in about:config

so you can twiddle with UA's on a site-specific basis

Ahhh

is enabling general.useragent.enable_overrides necessary?

it should be enabled by default right?

shows as modified here

reset it

might be just because it's not needed, this profile has seen some... years and years of action

Oh, thing I've noticed. xul is up to 60, but does that actually break every addon?

Or are they just seeing "Oh, post-quantum" and refusing to install because of that

what.. all 300 of them

If I look on ATO there are like 3 entire extensions that are installable

So basically yes

almost yeah but not quite several still work

there have been JS changes that require adapting addons, including OverbiteFF

some/most of these changes have been mentioned in release notes, I think

That makes sense. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't some secret "lie to addons about the version and they'll suddenly start working again" checkbox :)

njsg: i still think we should forward port the gopher necko protocol and somehow convince frg and iann to let us put it back

I mostly just use UBo, noscript, and greasemonkey and those still work.

So not much skin off my back.

it's also possible an extension works but just doesn't have SeaMonkey listed there as compatible.

Tekk: essentually there are no add-ons for seamonkey.. unless you find one that works

but i am the king of add-ons sites so maybe that will help cause no1curr about atbn

(warning: long) web.archive.org/web/20190922081452/…ector.org/firefox-addons/index.html

njsg: please.. justoff and I have more complete archives

nsITobin: Luckily the really important ones for me are there.

yeah, that too. it's listed in the website, right?

Though I think my one claim to mozilla fame never worked here :D

however none of those preserved seamonkey extensions unless they were also firefox extensions

( nsITobin ^ )

Had an addon for firefox with a few thousand installs once, using whatever that weird new API was they dropped.

Jetpack? something like that?

yeah, I see this list as useful to explore these extensions and see if there's anything useful

kids trust me on this if nothing else.. as long as there is mozilla extensibility in any meaningful sense.. it MUST be promoted revitailzed and put at the forefront.. .. right behind webcompat

oh and in listing extensions that work with SeaMonkey, there's also EnigMail

because extensions

will in some cases hold people over

Tekk: for extension stuff the status meeting notes are probably useful to read

or otherwise make something valuable when it isn't yet able to do that web thing everyone loves so much

njsg: Oh nah, I'm not married to it. Just making conversation.

I may actually need to go make conversation with Morpheus soon.

nsITobin: I feel like you can probably split webcompat even. Latest and greatest should be optional, but it feels like there are some (functionality wise) relatively low hanging fruit on popular websites.

Tekk: contributors

but contributors need infra

Like, extensibility promotion probably belongs above webgl 9.5 or w/e.

Mhm

infra needs money.. or me.

i guess

lol

or you

Eh, I'm *trying* to help on that front.

or someone not even here yet

I just paid for what, maybe one server for the month? :p

(probably nowhere near that tbh with how much of a memory hog browser are to build)

did you?

I set up a recurring 10 eur/mo donation today yeah

well i am sure everyone appreciate its

That was why I was complaining about paypal not working in SM :D

I mean it's well overdue. I've been a seamonkey fan for like 15 years at this point.

I set this up for the project it is for collecting community contributed infra resources and anything that needs done on a more .. adhoc.. free.. not complicated basis.. something that would be a pain to send to an amazon server

cause everything is overly complex in industry standard hosting these days

or seems to me anyway

I'm stuck working with it M-F. It is.

Few typos: libra -> libera .

yeah i need a spell checker

libnode

I think you have the opposite problem, if anything

Libra is a word. Libera is not.

nsITobin: Were you asking about php for help with onlyxul?

nah i just like php and i don't find many who do who aren't slaves to fig and frameworks

Ahhh

Nah, I used to use touches of it here and there back in the early 2010's but for web fun (such as it exists) it's usually perl or C with either a microframework or CGI :)

Tekk: you like perl? I do run one thing that is perl.. well MOSTLY perl since I created a php cgi runner of sorts.. it is a modified version of mxr the ancient as hell modified fork of lxr

I do

well i also run a copy of the logbot it is perl too but more modern

I'm rusty at it, but I enjoy it.

here is the 2016 base code of what I modified somewhat to make it runnable by php under nginx.. your eyes may bleed if you are used to writing clean code.. hg.mozilla.org/webtools/mxr/file

add-root.pl?

focus on source genxref update-search ident and the lib files

the most of that is just symlinks for the hack they added to do multiple sourceroots

Anything in particular I'm looking at or just showing off?

diff search ident source LXR/*

just look at it and the template-* files .. it is a mess

also genxref

sorry lib/LXR/*

What are you talking about

# Her b�r vi ha flere av disse:

It's always a sign of good code when the author has to descent into swedish(?)

I'm bad at telling my nordics apart when I can't lean on diacritics

LOL

I mean in xref's defense it's trying to do something impossible.

But yeah this isn't a dream to look through

yeah with code mostly from the early 2000s

i love it dearly

but it is cruel

That and trying to deal with C++ without writing a full C++ parser, which is....not easy.

The dealing with and the writing of a parser

it's existance is an afront .. it is also the best tool for the job... unless it is rust

this is my version

it has been perty'd up and it is running on nginx with a terrible php cgirunner

Every script's dream

I'm not sure I'd reach for bad necessarily.

I think I'd prefer "doing its best"

THIS is what I cannot reproduce in PHP.. everything else I can.. but without this and the linking to identifer search queries.. it will have to stay partly perl forever

Just go the opposite way, obviously :)

Rewrite the site from PHP to Perl

then why don't I just revert back to the 2016 state

and run it on apache as intended

Now you're thinking with the brain.

I bet we could do the whole site as an elaborate series of bugzilla extensions if we really put our hearts into it

ffs

I am rather poor in perl

:D

genxref stores its stuff as a berkley db.. i ALMOST had the logic of it worked out so i could at least READ and query it but then i lost focus

maybe i would still need to generate it in perl but i could deal with it in php .. figure out the dbd logic and move it to an sqlite store perhaps

That sounds like a reasonable solution to me. Ideally you probably don't want to have to regenerate the db on every call anyway

but even just stripping it down to JUST a source code linkifier and ident search.. would be .. like untangling christmas lights

Yeah. I'd fossilize the script after either understanding the db format it outputs or swapping to sqlite

i want to merge the cross-reference functionality with a repo viewer..

It's honestly too hairy to reimplement well. Just inherent in what it does

Have a script re-generate the db either on push or daily, whatever works, then build on top of that db output

yeah it regenerates on a schedule

i have so many plans but i dunno if I will be able to do them

That's always the problem

Time and motivation

hi nsITobin

good morning frg_Away

just waking up

already up for 7h

accomplish anything? cause I accomplished sleep :P

nsITobin nope just some hardware tweaks. Got rid of another AMD card. Latest Nvidia drivers are now more or les Linux friendly.

eww noVideo :P

dude, just hold a few days and go buy a RX9070 :)

nVidia doesn't even sell complete GPUs anymore, they're leaving bits at the factory! (not the AI ones, sadly)

tomman RTX 2070 Super. 20x is the last series comatible with anything 7+ and used cheap now. 50x seems to be a desaser compared to 40x

^compatible

I have a permaban for noVideo anything here after being burned with Fermi and Optimus

Fermi was garbage. Main reason I am now on the Thinkpad W530 instead of W520.

now, if only Intel did tried harder... their latest i740 rehash is not doing great :D

or maybe PowerVR should go back to desktop graphics

...nah, their drivers would SUCK, just like they suck on cellphones

On Windows Nvidia is unfortunately the best. AMD is garbage with blocked server versions, bloated stuff and short support cycles. Intel not much better. when it comes to supporting older versions.

well, for sure nVidia has great Windows drivers indeed

and they don't memory-hole old drivers

I have one RX580 left in second backup server and then its AMD free for me. Loved them till about 2017. The RX470 was great and last one I bought new.

the RTX5000 series has become a meme for all the wrong reasons: meltdown-prone power connectors, missing graphic units on die on multiple SKUs, actually worse performance per watt...

but then you remember: those things do not happen with their AI-dedicated cards

ffs comm-central/dfa9bcf0b166f1dea7821ff06c0b6eeeec745c0f

I wish thexy would at lest set me or InaN on cc

ok this has just derailed my patches.. i was syncing up..

ok so i set cc on the former bug which i guess is now defunct and everything has been moved to a new bug whihch i set cc on it.. its a damn rollup

the VERY thing I was doing

... well obviously I am suited.. heh .. to this I am on the wavelength

the current patch is also wrong

so if they land it as-is it will bust seamonkey's build config worse than it was

ugh, the Cooler Master site nukes all the links from working

the page renders fine, but no link ever does anything, except for a few, menus won't open, etc

either that or i am misunderstanding what they are doing because these files are not properly commented and are a mismash mess..

...nevermind, it wants dynamic imports for that crap to work

frg_Away: should I just ask them to exclude the suite parts from their bug or do you think given factors it would just spark a reason to just be even shittier to seamonkey?

or should I just wait for them to do their stuff and clean it up aftward?

nsITobin let them do it. I/We can always fix it up later if needed.

Alright

theregister.com/2025/03/02/mozilla_introduces_terms_of_use Vulture-senpai noticed us~

...also oh wow, the Mozilla board now has a former Meta

what's next, hiring a former GE or former Boeing too?!

> Most venerable of all is the continuing fork of the original all-in-one Netscape suite, Seamonkey. We're sad to note that its release engineer William Andrew Gianopoulos died in January.

better late than never :/

yes

well as I said last night.. the masses can wait until I have helped seamonkey before I even ATTEMPT to save their asses again..

did mozilla them selves even mention WG9s anywhere?

one who knew him posted in his obituary.

Personally we don't need users but devs. New users will probably expect the perfect web experience if moving from another browser and this is not there currently.

that is a huge dragging factor .. huge.. but yes and despite my own personal communication shortcomings I think I have my user experience bases covered as far as letting software talk to them rather than me.. as for developer intrest .. that is a tough one.. but there are ideas.. focus less on the browser as the primary interface and expand out useful components using mozilla tech .. It is an All-in-one Internet Application Suite.. we need more

application and internet in the suite to offset the lacking quantities of web and modern

know what *I* could use as part of seamonkye? a cross platform file manager and a cross platform sytax highlighting code editor and a cross platform git client

and an ftp client

an ftp/sftp client*

there are better file managers, ftp clients and editors available. I really need it for mail and browsing. Improvemens for calendar are the only thing I would really like to work on.

I can't stand the calendar extension because it rides off mailnews

that is what I mean. Decouple but still allow binding it to at least one mail account.

looks like I need to walk a half mile up the road to the vape shop

0303|14:13:12 <+tomman> or maybe PowerVR should go back to desktop graphics <- that sounds like it could be a first-class loyalty program for train passengers :-P

0303|17:06:18 <+nsITobin> know what *I* could use as part of seamonkye? a cross platform file manager and a cross platform sytax highlighting code editor and a cross platform git client <--- I think you have a typo there, did you mean "Emacs"? :-P

tomman: (to this day, VR to stand "virtual reality" still confuses me for a bit, as it also stands for Valtion Rautatiet and I might have a bit of train geekery in me)

half a mile my sciatic nerve.. must be closer to a mile one way

anyway I am back