08:12:54 Sompi: also, I'm surprised tulospalvelu.vaalit.fi hasn't been "improved" yet. one of the most usable sites I've ever seen 10:21:50 njsg: Yle's election result site is completely unusable. JavaScript crap where even scrolling is in many places prevented by CSS and you cannot see the list of the elected 10:22:00 And of course it only works on Chrome and Firefox 10:26:17 for some reason that scroll prevention seems to be a common thing nowadays and often seems that the developers themselves don't even know why they do it 10:48:48 njsg: https://saavutettavuusvaatimukset.fi/fi/yleista-saavutettavuudesta/aluehallintoviraston-valvonnan-aikaisia-uutisia-saavutettavuudesta-1 10:49:10 seems that aluehallintovirasto made them change the Finlex site, although they couldn't specify what exactly was wrong with the old site 10:49:27 They just said that the old site was "not accessible enough" and apparently they think that the new site is 100% good 10:49:57 The new site is worse and has quirks on all browsers... 10:51:47 And no-one ever specified what were the problems with the old site's accessibility 11:04:02 So it's almost always the "accessibility" 11:04:22 The website is not "accessible" if it is pure HTML and just works deterministically on every device 11:05:28 Then they make a new and shiny JavaScript version with random quirks and bugs that is only compatible with a limited set of browsers, and it is considered "accessible" 12:14:06 http://paste.dy.fi/8RY/plain <- any examples of those tier 2 browsers? 12:14:18 tier 3* 14:38:09 dam, we're only a tier 4 browser? 14:38:27 thats disappointing 14:41:31 why would it be ordered this way 14:41:44 also why are we on par with safari? 14:41:58 who wrote this up 14:45:24 there is a tier 3 but.. no examples 14:45:38 wait, Tier 5 is actually Chrome/FF 14:45:54 > Every web developer, who knows what they’re doing, probably has a ”tier list” of different browsers in their mind, and understands what web technologies are supported by each tier of browsers 14:46:00 that's blatantly false 14:46:15 even those that know what they're doing only care about Chrome, PERIOD 14:46:27 and maybe Safari, if they own a iPhone 14:46:44 because everything makes them feel "ooolld and aged" 14:48:01 ---everything else 14:53:46 Wouldn't that mean the only tier 1 browsers are chrome and safari? 14:53:49 Then firefox 14:53:53 as tier 2 14:54:02 then everyone else somewhere around tier 10 14:54:06 No this is bullshit 14:56:07 no one cares about text-only browsers for practical means of getting shit done.. under that structure... the structure of getting shit done.. you have the corperate service monoculture and you have us and unfortently still including MCP and Alex .. and you have mobile browsers which are almost exclusiely monoculture 14:57:06 so it is still just Corperate Service Monoculture and the rejected, the alternate, and the corrupted 14:58:35 Product vs Project 14:58:40 I prefer Projects 14:59:15 something to work on long term and make better for all and inspire the same.. hopefully.. PRODUCTS tho are just time limited time sinks for MONEY 14:59:22 one way or another 16:01:21 hi nsITobin. Wrist better? 16:01:50 halfway 16:03:16 i just ate a box of shells and chemicals pretending to be cheese 16:04:05 as long as not leaded shells :) 16:25:22 tomman: I'm talking about developers who actually know what they are doing. Sadly most developers nodaways are incompetent and they don't. 16:26:08 I'm writing a text about the change that happened about ten years ago in web development, when most professional web developers suddenly started to target only tier 5 browsers 16:26:25 But I need examples for tier 3 browsers that are currently actively maintained 16:28:55 And clearly SeaMonkey is tier 4 because it doesn't support the most latest chromeisms, and so is Safari 16:30:48 Sompi: please don't create this extracomplicated teir system people can't follow... there are only 2 teirs.. corperate service monoculture and everyone else and safari is NOT on par with us 16:30:55 it's whatwg or nothing 16:31:01 and will be until it collapses 16:31:10 or is endrun by a more extreme organization 16:31:22 just like how they started 16:31:23 Of course tier 5 is monoculture but other browsers can also be divided into different tiers based on what they support 16:31:51 yeah and I am saying it is irrelevant to even mention anything older than Tycho 16:31:59 Those lower-tier browsers were never meant to support everything but just ten years ago most websites still were browseable on them 16:32:02 no one targets text browsers 16:32:08 no one is going to target text browsers 16:32:24 I remember that most Finnish news websites were usable on lynx just ten years ago... 16:32:36 Then suddenly something changed and now they are unusable even on tier 4 browsers 16:33:10 Of course the developers didn't exactly target lynx but they wrote the webpages in such way that it worked 16:33:50 it is a waste of time to constantly re-evaluate a mass shift over a decade after the fact .. it no longer matters to anyone.. and has no practical use .. all that matters is what we have and what THEY are trying to push 16:34:19 Browsers like lynx do have practical use 16:34:38 They are simple, they work on any hardware and they don't have much attack surface 16:34:56 well browsers like lynx won't help stop tyranny or collapse 16:36:30 I used lynx for banking before OP removed their "PDA" version of the online bank and replaced it with the "accessible" version that only works on Internet Explorer, Firefox, Chrome and Safari 16:36:51 They even added a JavaScript browser check that prevents using the service if the browser is not in the list of allowed browsers 16:37:19 And somehow they call that "accessibility" 16:39:03 this is crap i was bitching about in 2014 and 2012 and 2010 and 2008.. I am fast approching not caring about the past because anything worth preserving or having is already open source, had leaked, or was reverse engineered. 16:39:56 It seems that every time the new site, that is declared more "accessible" than the old one, is actually much worse from the accessibility standpoint, and somehow the majority of people just don't notice it even though the problem should be obviously visible 16:39:57 We have already peaked in our worthwhile technical evolution .. we are NOW in a collapse.. Deal with it. 16:41:08 my way is TRYING to create alternatives and somehow by any means inspire or provoke people into otherwise doing something as well because NO ONE WILL SAVE US and anyone trying from these companies that created these issues is just another scam 16:41:52 You want lynx and teir 4 and lower(higher?) teirs to be relevant.. then we need to go bigger 16:42:26 form a standards body deeming its self into authority and declairing what the ACTUAL world wide web and internet of protocols IS and WHO is complying 16:42:33 The lower the tier number, the more secure the browser tends to be 16:46:06 I am bold enough to START such a thing but me my self alone in 2025 cannot sustain such an effort by my self.. 16:47:21 ST-DOS needs a web browser! 16:49:13 Sompi: Also your tiers are inverted 16:49:24 At least by English conventions 16:49:26 i indicated that 16:49:56 it's an overcomplication of irrelevant factors not applicable to most techies let alone every day users 16:49:59 And to double up on Tobin again, there are two tiers, maybe 3. 16:50:15 all they need to know is Corperate Service Monoculture and.. the rest. 16:50:15 1. Chrome and Safari. Safari because it's common on macs and the only choice on iOS 16:50:24 2. Firefox. Maybe you test against this 16:50:33 3. Everything else. If the website works you're lucky and we make no guarantees 16:50:45 firefox isn't special anymore 16:50:52 why make a distinction 16:51:05 monoculture or anything else 16:51:12 it's simple and ACTUALLY true 16:51:16 Because some places actually do test against and support Firefox 16:51:19 Just not ESR 16:51:29 The push towards monoculture also generally started ten years ago, everywhere 16:51:37 No website I know if considers not working in ESR or any alternative browser a bug 16:51:44 know of* 16:51:46 Sompi: no sir 16:51:51 Now even the most popular Linux distributions like Debian only support very few hardware targets, and they used to support dozens 16:51:52 it has always been that way 16:52:03 See Internet Explorer 16:52:19 Now they are even killing x86 16:52:24 only reason Firefox took off was IE6 lagged for years unchanged 16:52:30 and once IE7 happened 16:52:33 nsITobin: The non-microsoft world used to be much more diverse 16:52:34 Mozilla Corp happened 16:52:41 and the same old shit started all over again 16:53:04 Now everything just wants to force the users into using one standard platform that is also a moving target 16:53:17 So you need to constantly buy new shit 16:53:36 Sompi: again its ALWAYS been that way.. the DOJ shit was an aboration and IE6 winning and getting complacent was an aboration.. 16:53:59 the MOMENT mozilla started being the mozilla we know it was cut off early 16:54:08 suite and thunderbird got thrown out 16:54:14 etc 16:55:12 No, computers clearly were more diverse 16:55:45 Windows was only a thing for IBM PC compatibles and there were also other platforms, Linux and BSD usually supported them all 16:56:06 1999, Internet Explorer, Opera, Netscape, on Windows Mac and Unix 16:56:15 Now everything is 64-bit x86 and UEFI crap or some non-standard ARM stuff 16:56:21 2005 Edge, Chrome, Firefox on Windows Mac and Linux 16:56:23 err 16:56:26 2025 16:56:29 it's the same 16:56:43 I'm talking about hardware 16:57:17 well laptops netbooks and tablets set the stage for ipads and iphones which fed back and ruined desktop software and the web as we knew it 16:57:59 shortcutting decades of public indoctrination to technology for cat videos vibrating their balls on slabs of glass 16:58:08 and one wonders why tech is so fucked today? 16:58:22 and why the world is so overcomplicated but not much mroe advanced than 10-20 years ago 16:58:38 and why everything fucking up makes people angry some angry enough to become a maga nazi? 16:58:41 yeah well 16:59:00 don't tell me safari is merely the same group as seamonkey 17:01:12 Artifical divisions and conflated grouping 17:01:22 Sompi: that is the problem WORLD WIDE. 17:01:54 applies to virtually every big issue in the world.. an artifical division or some conflated association or grouping with something else 17:03:13 Technological diversity is good for freedom, but we need common standardized protocols and file formats to be able to interact between different computer platforms 17:03:42 and that is something that will have to be reimplimented .. after more things collapse. 17:03:51 but we can't have it right now 17:04:47 That's how things used to be, even though Microsoft had an unfair dominance in the world of IBM PC compatibles 17:06:21 You could easily use some relatively exotic computer as a daily driver and probably even install some popular Linux or BSD distro to it 17:08:14 No.. I could not. 17:08:53 I wouldn't be able to afford such hardware. I won't be able to afford hardware when this system which is largely from 2018 fails.. 17:09:44 I think the argument is supposed to be more from the like 2005-2010 era where you could trash pick some weird alpha decstation nobody cares about, install debian on it, and have a perfectly usable computer web browser included. 17:10:06 Back then you could use a dumpster-dived computer as a daily driver. Now you cannot do anything with it, even web browsing is too much for it 17:10:11 * Tekk misses when cool computers could just be trashpicked 17:10:13 Tekk: Yes 17:10:34 You can still trashpick computers but the software moves forward so fast that nothing works anymore 17:10:40 Mhm. 17:10:48 again this won't continue forever 17:10:56 it isn't sustainable 17:11:42 Technological monoculture is never sustainable 17:12:17 THe whole point of it is to be unsustainable. Everyone is forced to buy new shit until the world becomes devoid of resources 17:12:40 but we have never had a global IT systems fuckup of the kind we are approching as more reliable tested systems and software are swapped out or worse slaved to the newer shit by people who don't understand what they are doing 17:12:59 think y2k but actually happens with our current day level of digital interconnectedness 17:13:22 Televisions used to last 30 years, stationary phones also. And even mobile phones lasted for at least five years and cost a fraction of what they cost now. Nowadays everything last at most two years and need to be replaced 17:14:09 just make peace with the fact the world and life as you have become accustom to is one trump moodswing or one update away from being upended and decimated 17:15:04 Cars used to last 30 years and they were serviceable. Now they are disposable after five years and spare parts aren't manufactured anymore 17:16:35 I say tear it all down.. 17:16:38 all of it 17:16:57 start again 17:17:33 but i say that because its the most likely outcome.. if modern computer tech collapses the best we can do on a small group scale is perhaps 16bit systems and maybe 32bit 17:17:49 That's exactly why I made ST-DOS 17:17:52 no post-collapsed group will be able to manufacture modern day hardware 17:18:26 The tech system is going to collapse. China occupies Taiwan and it's over 17:19:09 Of course it's not a total collapse because we can still make simpler 16-bit computers elsewhere, but those need software 17:20:45 Sompi: well how can I get started doing a graphical environment for your dos system? 17:20:52 I need win3.1 ux minimum 17:20:54 lol 17:21:29 Everything that is compiled with Watcom for 16-bit DOS target should work 17:21:41 nsITobin: Wow, needlessly hating on GEM 17:22:47 Sadly most DOS programs do stupid stuff with MS-DOS specific kernel internals so they don't work 17:26:01 I wrote a graphical desktop system for it but it still has some bugs that cause it to crash 17:27:07 It seems to be relatively stable when the user doesn't do anything so the crashes are probably related to window creation or I/O interrupt handling 17:32:03 And I'm currently testing a new development version that should be more stable 17:58:20 when I use windows 10.. or windows 7.. or win2k.. I am really just using Windows 3.1 17:59:45 I wonder how late you can do that. 18:00:00 Iirc until like....XP SP2 Windows shipped with program manager 18:00:13 And I think you could just copy it from an old install and set it as your shell for a while after 18:00:37 yeah but it was slightly gimmed 18:00:40 gimped 18:00:46 cause it couldn't operate in shell mode 18:01:03 that was factored out of win2k program manager even when SET as the shell 18:01:16 i need a linux program manager 18:01:24 I believe there is one 18:01:27 Sec 18:01:30 and it would unfortently have to be done in qt cause qt has mdi .. 18:01:40 no that window manager is crap 18:02:50 it has no multimonitor awareness and so minimising stuff goes off screen.. it doesn't actually HAVE program manager but a right click menu .. and its window decorations are hardcoded to be a million pixels by a million pixels like it was designed for a tablet and gross linux fingers 18:03:49 Oh I see now 18:03:52 yeah 18:03:53 * Tekk never actually looked into it 18:03:54 i was upset 18:03:57 very upset 18:04:28 cause there is no reason why it can't be a windows 3.1 window manager even without the ability to have a program manager window 18:05:19 openbox could be modified to fill such a role and if i wrote a small program to hook the taskbar icons i could put em on the desktop .. i'd just need to also allow passthrough for openbox menu 18:29:30 on a more practical level i am gonna have to plan and set limits of what I impliment.. i keep trying to do everything at the same time and haven't gotten far cause of my hands this past week so i think i need more structure in my planning 19:56:52 https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2025/04/12/ai_code_suggestions_sabotage_supply_chain/ 19:59:03 "supply chain" 19:59:16 before the pandemic had that phrase ever shown up in regards to software? 19:59:43 because I seriously can't remember it being used outside literal sailing ships before 2020 20:20:54 I definitely remember talk about supply chain attacks before 2020. 20:23:47 well it is dumb 20:23:54 thatt isn't how software works 20:24:41 nsITobin Lets see how long this lasts on github :) 20:24:43 https://github.com/massgravel/TSforge 20:24:51 It makes sense by analogy I think. At least how it used to be used. 20:24:55 Haven't read that article 20:24:58 ha 20:25:00 frg: 20:25:17 so why doesn't everyone just have kmspico 20:25:35 frg: massgravel's stuff's been up for a long time 20:25:57 Because this one is even easier. 20:26:46 Tekk yes but this one is "nasty". You don't even need a kms or key for server or esu activation. 20:27:47 kmspico is a setup open click a button done 20:27:55 not sure how this is easier 20:28:22 Yeah when I've hypothetically done activations of windows for evaluation purposes with their tools it was literally just click on this script file. Do you want office? No, cool. You're activated. 20:28:54 KMS usually needs an internet connection to somewhere. This one is optinally local only. 20:30:02 I guess ms might care about that marginally since they can just shut down the server whenever they feel like it 20:30:03 Or honeypot it 20:30:26 microsoft accounts are how microsoft intends to lock windows down 20:30:46 just need to flip a flag to remove local non-domain authinicated accounts 20:31:31 If you are a business you probably won't do it anyway unless you want to be potentially sued for big money but still. 20:31:41 By and large MS loves people pirating Windows, because that's more people using Windows. They've said as much before. 20:31:58 Oh yeah, businesses they'll go after. 20:32:09 i used to love to pirate windows 20:32:14 But like, the OEM windows license on your laptop probably make microsoft $5 20:32:16 and betas 20:32:16 made* 20:32:26 after windows 7.. i didn't anymore 20:33:31 The good thing about the bios lic is that you can grab one off a dead mobo as long as the flash chip survived. 20:33:47 i used to slic when i had real bios 20:34:01 but after efi it was simpler to use kmspico 20:34:28 7 was slic 2.1. The later ones are server only. Currently 2.7 for 2025 20:38:53 nowadays the windows product key is usually hardbaked in the firmware image of the mainboard 20:39:09 so you cannot get rid of it if you have an UEFI PC 20:39:22 you cannot return Windows anymore 20:41:31 You can reflash the bios but it is a bit harder. I usually only grab it out of dead mobos. If you still can boot then showkey does the job. 20:41:32 https://ibb.co/rKYJ3yrV 20:42:23 did they ever update my digital activator for efi? 20:43:11 frg: you could even patch and force an slic'd bios on vmware 20:43:36 nsITobin or inject an slic in vbos 20:43:44 ^vbox 20:51:00 The latest and greates 2.53.21b1 pre for Windows x64: https://seafiles.thereisonlyxul.org/nightly/2025/04/2025-04-14-00-00-00-comm-253/ 20:51:06 Other languages on request. 21:26:55 for security reasons I am gonna clear out CCI User Accounts that have not been claimed. Just better to not have unused accounts and creating new ones is trivial. 21:29:03 gitlab wip updated. sync with 2.53 21:31:11 nsITobin really good to have your storage. Thanks again. 21:47:29 frg_Away: well it does beat dropbox at least 21:47:40 maybe not in scale but in .. it works..ness 21:47:58 by a mile 21:48:38 while I do typically hover more in the late 90s access model.. of not really having one.. on the INTERNET some additional precautions are needed 21:53:44 and now for some sleep. nn 22:14:15 well shit.. if frg was here he could have bbq chicken breast