11:41:44 <Sompi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Seo7o3ZChig
13:14:04 <njsg> Sompi: from the other day, I'm curious, who came up with that "open formats are ideological" stance?
13:32:51 <Sompi> I don't know who originally came up with it. But it seems to be a normal way of thinking now.
13:37:14 <Sompi> And it always includes the assumption that closed source programs and closed formats and protocols are ideologically neutral, even when used exclusively
13:39:32 <mrnhmath> they are ideological, but so is almost everything made by men
13:39:57 <Sompi> It goes so far that you cannot even use free programming/developing tools in schools. You have to use closed source compilers where the students cannot even see how things are implemented in the source code of the libraries
13:40:35 <mrnhmath> it comes from the same thinking that private property and markets are natural to humans
13:43:36 <Sompi> In this case people who think that way don't understand how computers and programming work
13:45:13 <Sompi> If you cannot see the source code of the compiler and run-time libraries, you cannot effectively learn how your code turns into an executable
13:45:41 <Sompi> And if your code doesn't work for some reason, you'll often have a hard time figuring out why
13:47:16 <mrnhmath> it's not that they don't understand, they simply don't care
13:48:00 <mrnhmath> they know we're headed to total destruction in all spheres of life but we're just gonna keep pushing
13:50:50 <Sompi> It can also be genuine incompetence
13:52:52 <Sompi> Microsoft and other corporations other host events where those people are trained for their jobs
13:53:25 <Sompi> In those events the education means just spreading disinformation
13:54:13 <Sompi> I don't understand why those events are not widely seen as a problem
13:54:32 <Sompi> It should be clear that they are not neutral
13:54:48 <mrnhmath> vacilating orgs such as eff and fsf aren't helping
13:57:12 <Sompi> They are being infiltrated by wokeists. Woke is a psychological operation that was originally designed to end the occupy protests in the Wall Street, but after that it became a general-purpose weapon to destroy everything that threatens the hegemony of large corporations
14:19:39 <tomman> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42177767 Hackernews is deeply concerned that Google could be forced to spinoff their beloved Chrome
14:19:43 <tomman> ~the horror~
14:20:17 <tomman> many hope they don't touch Safari, others reminded us that Firefox sucks, and when asked about "other browsers", the answer is *crickets*
14:20:34 <nsITobin> that puts Microsoft back at Internet Explorer dominance with MSEdge and defacto ownership of the Windows branch
14:20:39 <nsITobin> i predicted this
14:20:39 <tomman> but the real fear: who will keep Pushing! Things! Forward! with new "standards" every week?
14:20:41 <nsITobin> tomman: remember
14:20:58 <tomman> ha, some idiot was suggesting Chredge as a savior from a Chrome monopoly :D
14:21:10 <tomman> "but dude, that's still Chrome"
14:21:12 <nsITobin> see its already in place
14:21:19 <tomman> "butbutbut it's not Google!"
14:21:23 <nsITobin> tomman: no its different cause its a different label
14:21:32 <nsITobin> but every mozilla fork is a fork of firefox including seamonkey
14:21:34 <nsITobin> and thunderbird
14:21:39 <nsITobin> i hate this
14:21:41 <tomman> it's like supermarket-brand mayo vs. actual brand mayo
14:21:46 <tomman> despite both being made at the same factory
14:21:59 <tomman> with the same recipe
14:22:09 <tomman> and both are effectively the same thing, just different labels
14:22:12 <nsITobin> some store brands are national brands some are knockoff brands that have their own merrits
14:22:38 <nsITobin> but i do hate this so much.. every chrome is different yet the same but everything done with mozilla is just "firefox"
14:23:02 <nsITobin> and not different except being old and insecure
14:23:11 <nsITobin> especially when it isn't
14:23:51 <Sompi> And the people who discuss things there in the Hackernews are supposed to be the ones who know more than an ordinary layman...
14:24:34 <tomman> Sompi: anything that threatens its exit chances of selling their JS bloat scamtups for $BILLIONS is not welcomed warmly there
14:24:42 <nsITobin> I know so much about the browser war because I have been living it since 2005 and a participant of minimal exceptionalism since 2008
14:24:54 <nsITobin> not because I am smarter than other people
14:25:09 <tomman> people hated IE because it was old, stale, unsafe, and full of proprietary garbage
14:25:29 <tomman> but the same people now loves Chrome because it's "fresh, innovative, safe, and full of shiny things"
14:25:40 <nsITobin> no people hated IE because microsoft forced it into every aspect of their lives or tried hard to
14:26:00 <tomman> Well, and Google isn't forcing Chrome too? I mean, that goes implicit for both browsers
14:26:01 <nsITobin> which is fine if you like IE or that feature set and i did for a little while but then they didn't do anything with it
14:26:33 <nsITobin> not reading sponcer installer page checkboxes is how chrome got around
14:26:55 <nsITobin> and preinstalls
14:27:04 <nsITobin> bundling but not of the OS
14:27:12 <tomman> "install this random PDF reader and get a web browser!"
14:27:14 <nsITobin> .. except android now
14:27:33 <nsITobin> install google earth and get a browser
14:27:34 <nsITobin> too
14:27:49 <nsITobin> google earth was great software when it was keyhole but it rots at google
14:28:57 <nsITobin> I need to devise a solid schedule to balance my workload
14:29:12 <nsITobin> so i can have an effective workload
14:29:13 <nsITobin> lol
14:33:02 <tomman> https://www.magiclasso.co/insights/is-chrome-the-new-ie/ ah, found it (this was on yesterday's HN frontpage)
14:33:24 <tomman> > With Edge, Microsoft has a chance to claim the position of the disruptive alternate browser.
14:33:44 <nsITobin> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42183844
14:33:46 <tomman> > Though, despite these advantages, Edge hasn’t set the world alight. Its marketshare is higher, though similar to Firefox. But it is available on all major platforms. It has also avoided alternative-browser compatibility issues by being based upon Chromium. It may also be able to successfully leverage Microsoft’s vast channels to reach new users.
14:34:09 <tomman> nsITobin: getting downvoted in 3... 2... 1...
14:34:36 <tomman> you're hurting the feelings of the hivemind! :D
14:34:40 <nsITobin> well downvoted is better than shadowbanned
14:34:41 <nsITobin> lol
14:34:44 <tomman> we don't argue with facts at HN!
14:34:56 <nsITobin> dude.. I am still some sort of Tobin..
14:35:10 <nsITobin> i will argue with anyone about anything for any reason
14:35:19 <nsITobin> including entertainment
14:35:59 <nsITobin> wanna argue about it tomman?
14:36:08 <tomman> nah, I just had breakfast~
14:36:15 <nsITobin> k :)
14:36:39 <tomman> what I need to do now is some backups, I'm dangerously late with my monthly HDD images
14:36:42 <tomman> and that's not zen
14:37:06 <tomman> (of course endless power outages do not help with getting that task done)
14:37:10 <nsITobin> i should start a new wim file and back up too
14:37:39 <nsITobin> wimlib-imagex with --unix-data makes wim a linux system imaging format
14:38:23 <Sompi> It's also interesting how "available on all major platforms" seem to mean less and less platforms every year
14:38:48 <tomman> "Major platforms": Windows, Mac, Android and iOS
14:38:50 <tomman> that's it.
14:38:56 <Sompi> Now browsers even have CPU-dependent code that only works on certain instruction sets
14:39:02 <tomman> if you're lucky, a Electron-powered "port" for Linux
14:39:12 <nsITobin> that was true the moment the browser became a media player
14:39:16 <nsITobin> technically
14:39:17 <Sompi> "linux" means only 64-bit x86
14:39:23 <Sompi> it used to mean so much more
14:39:31 <nsITobin> but for primary rendering? has it come to that now?
14:39:47 <tomman> Sompi: hell, even ARM64 is a second class citizen for Linux these days, despite being the hot trend (because Apple) :D
14:41:09 <Sompi> We keep losing more and more technological diversity, and that's the fault of people who embrace diversity themselves
14:41:12 <nsITobin> it's gonna go back to the model where everyone's hardware is different but the web is the interop between all propritary systems
14:41:27 <Sompi> And with technological diversity we lose freedom
14:41:31 <nsITobin> it was never about open standards for everyone its about open standards for propritary interop
14:41:51 <tomman> bring back Amiga and Atari ST! :D
14:42:19 <nsITobin> regardless I intend to plod along and fork everything
14:42:23 <nsITobin> except seamonkey
14:42:50 <nsITobin> i don't have to fork seamonkey cause I am allowed to work on seamonkey providing i find the right things to poke at
14:43:25 <Sompi> it's also weird how aggressively these "normies" are coercing everyone else to use the same technological solutions as they themselves use
14:43:54 <Sompi> while pretending to advocate for values like freedom and privacy
14:44:51 <tomman> Well, in my personal experience, "normies" don't even advocate for anything
14:45:08 <nsITobin> I only do that when I am the one who will be constantly asked to deal with them not bothering to learn the system them selves.. if i have to solve everything for everyone anyway why don't they use my solutions.. but i agree the issue is that people are both unwilling to and discuraged from finding their own solutions and workarounds
14:45:21 <tomman> they are just tech illiterate, do not want to learn, and just wanna get stuff done and stay out of problems, even if their illiteracy actually ends harming them on the long run
14:45:22 <nsITobin> to bring them to something akin to equal terms with others
14:45:54 <tomman> even telling people "why not Telegram instead of WhatsApp?" is like climbing the Everest with surgical gloves
14:46:14 <nsITobin> i am more extreme.. big shock
14:46:34 <nsITobin> they the FUCK are you putting anything in that phone beyond what you need to look something up and make a phone call
14:46:42 <Sompi> Nowadays Telegram also requires an Android or iOS phone so it is not a viable choice for anything
14:46:42 <nsITobin> why*
14:46:59 <nsITobin> I refuse to be bound to a cell phone
14:47:03 <Sompi> And also it now has a backdoor
14:47:07 <Sompi> Officially
14:47:15 <Sompi> For government officials
14:49:48 <Sompi> Telegram continues to boast about its security while still saving all messages on its servers in plaintext and now it even requires an Android or iOS phone which all have backdoors for governments
14:49:57 <Sompi> And somehow most people still don't see a problem
14:50:23 <nsITobin> doublethink
14:50:29 <nsITobin> blackwhite
14:51:20 <nsITobin> the chocoration going up from 25 to 20 grams
14:51:23 <nsITobin> you know Sompi
14:52:44 <nsITobin> Antimonopoly action is good for the market, but let's be honest nobody will make a better chrome, at best they will inject ads or turn it to a walled garden. It will be a bad thing in the end for us web developers , and we will lose the last open platform.
14:52:52 <nsITobin> fromn that ycombinator post
14:53:11 <nsITobin> they literally believe google chrome is ad free not a walled garden and the only open platform
14:53:13 <nsITobin> ...
14:54:43 <Sompi> I don't want to create a "better chrome", I just want open and STABLE standards that I can follow when creating my own browser from scratch
14:55:06 <nsITobin> I want the xml web i was promised
14:56:19 <tomman> I just want glorified document readers with minimal interactivity
14:56:35 <tomman> get rid of videos, audio, 3D, USB, filesystem, and all that stuff that belongs to a OS!
14:56:55 <tomman> if I wanted to play videogames, I would just go to Steam and buy one
14:57:11 <Sompi> or an actual store
14:57:25 <Sompi> and buy a physical copy of it, and own it
14:57:30 <Sompi> and make backups of it
14:58:14 <tomman> Given the sorry state of the gamedev industry right now, physical format games are on its last legs nowadays
14:58:21 <tomman> the best you can aim is for something like GOG
14:58:38 <tomman> the problem is that even if we leave aside the DRM crap, games require frequent updates because they ship BROKEN
14:58:44 <tomman> especially AAA crud
14:58:57 <nsITobin> tomman: unfortently you can't cause js frameworks have no feature detetcion or error checking for anything but what chrome supports
14:59:00 <tomman> hell, even small indie games these days are built over complex engines
14:59:13 <nsITobin> so you exclude parts scripts fail
14:59:21 <nsITobin> all of it not just that part
15:00:04 <Sompi> It is actually easier to write a game for DOS than it is for any "modern" multitasking operating system...
18:18:01 <tomman> > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42183844
18:18:09 <tomman> aaaaand the hivemind has downvoted it :D
18:18:15 <tomman> surprisingly it hasn't been nuked yet
18:19:15 <tomman> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42180975 this one also got buried, but I think it was because of party slant
18:21:22 <mrnhmath> tomman: eh, that one was nonsense
18:21:36 <tomman> half of it was nonsense
18:21:48 <tomman> but the rest really deserved the downvote
18:22:02 <tomman> however, it's the crap that normally Hackernews would praise, not bury
18:22:46 <mrnhmath> reddit minds
18:23:24 <nsITobin> tomman: the Tobin Factor may be in play as well
18:23:26 <nsITobin> never doubt it
18:23:51 <nsITobin> I dunno which is worse.. being silenced or just not being taken seriously
18:23:55 <tomman> I'm pretty much sure the Tobin Factor is mostly irrelevant among the current Hackernews crowd
18:24:04 <nsITobin> perhaps
18:24:14 <nsITobin> but I did specifically cite it as Former Pale Moon Asshole
18:24:19 <nsITobin> as if that was my rank
18:24:20 <tomman> they just see "oh, someone is saying mean things about Our Savior Chrome"
18:24:22 <nsITobin> .. and it kinda was
18:24:44 <tomman> BTW, the thread is well past 1000 comments
18:24:52 <nsITobin> the tech left just learned cultism works
18:24:56 <tomman> because of course it impacts the very living of most HN
18:25:03 <nsITobin> not that it is good just that it works
18:25:21 <nsITobin> save me mommy chrome from daddy trump!
18:25:30 <nsITobin> fuck sakes is THIS what we have devolved into?
18:26:00 <mrnhmath> nsITobin: mommy chrommy
18:26:18 <tomman> The United Nations Of Chrome
18:26:37 <nsITobin> don't worry uncle microsoft will save us
18:27:48 <tomman> https://mastodon.social/@jwz/113506616368126616 in related awful news
18:28:06 <tomman> wtf, didn't knew the latest stage of brand necrophilia for Netscape was... branding a Chrome clone
18:28:11 <tomman> now THAT'S an insult
18:28:51 <nsITobin> wait
18:28:52 <nsITobin> what
18:28:55 <mrnhmath> ??????
18:29:03 <nsITobin> OH SHIT
18:29:05 <nsITobin> FUCK
18:29:09 <nsITobin> FUCK FUCK FDUCK DFIUHDR(&*FQW
18:29:50 <mrnhmath> welcome back
18:29:52 <nsITobin> ANyway as I was saying this is a TERRIBLE suggestion
18:30:58 <mrnhmath> who's gonna piss off oath
18:31:01 <mrnhmath> :)
18:31:40 <nsITobin> frg_Away: does seamonkey have enough money yet to buy the Netscape trademark?
18:33:29 <tomman> Trying to ind a official source for that...
18:34:22 <tomman> well, Netscape is also a ISP, apparently
18:34:30 <nsITobin> well yeah old dial up isp
18:34:36 <nsITobin> still makes AOL money
18:34:53 <nsITobin> but if the netscape brand is used on chromium
18:35:01 <nsITobin> ....
18:36:07 <tomman> ugh, the sketchy info I can find is behind whatever the hell is Threads or YT videos
18:36:16 <nsITobin> why in fucks name is jwz boosting Chris Pirillo
18:36:18 <mrnhmath> nsITobin: i wonder who their audience is
18:36:25 <nsITobin> and a stupid image macro to boot
18:36:37 <mrnhmath> i mean the only people in the world that still cares for netscape is in this channel
18:36:51 <nsITobin> tomman: i hold no illusions jwz, my personal fuckin jesus christ.. would hate my guts
18:37:47 <tomman> https://xcancel.com/TRX7800X/status/1857791517110530222
18:37:51 <njsg> Sompi: is this from experience at some schools? can you name some? I'm curious as to where is that happening, is this all grade school, or AMKs too?
18:38:26 <nsITobin> so its not netscape
18:38:29 <nsITobin> brandwise
18:38:36 <nsITobin> just netscape because aol owns netscape
18:38:40 <nsITobin> the trademark
18:38:50 <nsITobin> even tho it is branded as aol shitshield or something
18:39:03 <tomman> https://isp.netscape.com/ ah yeah, it's the "Download Browser" link at the very bottom
18:39:37 <tomman> https://aol.sentrybay.com/deploy/aol.php?licensor=netscape&uid=mbr_rusdeflnk00000002&ncid=mbr_rusdeflnk00000002 => it sends to a very shady .EXE called "AOL_Netscape.exe"
18:39:41 <nsITobin> this says its copyright yahoo
18:40:21 <tomman> https://wetdry.world/@ipg/113491635810847495
18:40:34 <njsg> Sompi: Microsoft *is* indeed known for doubling down on misinformation, it seems they go with the "sales must be a pitch" hype, *even* with tech audiences. Although I'd say having Greg Sullivan double down on "the MKS Korn Shell is fully compatible with the original Korn Shell" in front of David Korn was a bit too much.
18:40:43 <tomman> yep, this is Chromoscape
18:40:51 <tomman> today is a very sad day for the history of Internet
18:41:08 <nsITobin> btw i figured out why Mozilla really got rid of the nsPrefix.. because an nsDAP.cpp would not go over well.
18:41:59 <nsITobin> put that on your denylist and vape it..
18:44:09 <nsITobin> but seriously.. i dunno things are shifting and I don't like it.
18:49:55 <tomman> https://i.pandas.social/media_attachments/files/113/495/079/479/960/215/original/df1d38b2eea5813f.jpg ah, this meme is VERY appropiate
18:50:29 <nsITobin> i asked this question 10 fucking years ago
18:50:44 <nsITobin> no one has given me a proper answer beyond open standards
18:50:55 <tomman> "Innovation"
18:50:59 <nsITobin> ... its not an open standard when everyone uses the same product with a different label
18:51:00 <tomman> "Pushing Things Forward"
18:51:04 <tomman> "Healthy Ecosystems"
18:51:10 <tomman> "Eternal Youth"
18:51:25 <nsITobin> like the one I created?
18:51:33 <nsITobin> minus the fascism
18:51:51 <nsITobin> or maybe more of it i dunno anymore
18:53:13 <tomman> "Because a static website needs dynamic imports, BigInt, and of course, emoji regexes"
18:55:47 <njsg> <+tomman> "Major platforms": Windows, Mac, Android and iOS <--- "what do you mean 'Performance Optimization With Enhanced RISC - Performance Computing'?"
18:57:02 <njsg> side note: climbing the everest with surgical gloves does sound like extremely unpleasant
19:20:45 <nsITobin> tomman: it's literally cheaper to offload the processing power to the client and only have the server validate inputs and outputs
19:20:52 <nsITobin> that is why this started
19:21:04 <nsITobin> now why it continues is beyond me
19:21:15 <tomman> so we went from "thin clients" to "thin servers" :D
19:21:31 <nsITobin> energy or compute time whichever you messure.. its cheaper to make YOU process it and me just check and authorize your work
19:21:43 <nsITobin> yes
19:21:46 <nsITobin> exactly
19:21:56 <nsITobin> but of course green tech limits consumer electronics
19:22:31 <nsITobin> which will continue regardless
19:22:53 <njsg> green tech did take a massive hit from amber terminals
19:23:53 <nsITobin> besides that consumer power in that device you bought but don't have the right to repair and will be obsoleted by software update.. that compute power is for the services you bought the device for.. creation is neich.. consumption is universal
19:25:30 <nsITobin> you are paying people for the ability to pay people for things you could do your self not 20 years ago
19:26:30 <nsITobin> so njsg how do we embed chromium into seamonkey
19:26:33 <nsITobin> and control it
19:29:13 <njsg> nsITobin: chrome.manifest?
19:29:30 <nsITobin> njsg: NOT MO MORE
19:29:36 <nsITobin> not extension chrome.manifest
19:30:01 <nsITobin> doing it like that would likely also need the npapi plugin as well
19:30:04 <nsITobin> like ietab
19:30:17 <nsITobin> and that is gone too so it would have to be .. built-in
19:30:49 <njsg> yeah, that was a joke :-P
19:31:19 <nsITobin> tho i am sure it could be made to be fine without the chromeium components by some checking so the support is built in but the chromium package would still be an "add-on" likely packaged as such just so there is a known path and the user can update it
19:32:00 <nsITobin> all i need is the code that makes it .. reality.. concept has been simmering in my head for 8 years
19:32:31 <nsITobin> but there are things I don't understand
19:34:12 <nsITobin> like sure I can control a thing in mozilla code but i don't exactly understand how a widget like a browser window actually becomes a widget that gets drawn.. that's the part I am missing cause i have done vb and c# stuff with gecko and ie but i had that activex control that.. did the construction of the widget
19:34:31 <njsg> xcancel.com just gets me back to the captcha, is it supposed to work?
19:35:20 <nsITobin> so if i had a <chromium> widget defined by xbl.. how do i make it draw the thing where that element is because everything past that is just controlling it
19:38:01 <njsg> I'm not bothering to try with JS enabled because, well, if they have a note on having to enable cookies and none on JS, I'm assuing it doesn't need JS, and it actually passes the captcha...
19:41:08 <nsITobin> yeah none of this ietab2 code is worth anything without npapi
19:48:41 <tomman> njsg: xcancel has never threw a captcha at me...
19:48:53 <tomman> even Poast started working on the recent nightlies without doing anything
19:52:04 <njsg> js enabled or disabled?
19:52:39 <tomman> enabled
19:53:24 <tomman> xcancel will do the "verifying your browser" crap 2 times, by the 3rd one you will pass and get redirected to the actual site
19:54:11 <tomman> and yes, sites stealing that Clownflare stupid idea of "verifying your browser" should be sent to a bank, in the middle of Siberia
19:55:32 <nsITobin> well i need to invent the Web protocol.. its like https except 1.1 and self-signed == same as http and let them have https as the app protocol they want
19:55:52 <nsITobin> cause I believe in the World Wide Web
19:56:05 <nsITobin> not the OpenWeb as run by clownflare and dictated by Googlesoft
20:17:53 <tomman> isn't Clownflare these days a Googlesoft subsidiary anyway?
20:29:07 <nsITobin> dunno
20:29:08 <nsITobin> maybe
20:30:36 <nsITobin> I think Mozilla is gonna get Google's ad business while Microsoft owns and operates chrome inc as a wholey owned subsidiary it will be fedora where edge will be solid stable and invasive
20:31:31 <nsITobin> and google will just be the core google services search mail maps drive and youtube will be split off and got by either a telecom or microsoft again
20:32:28 <nsITobin> remember it's only a bullshit prediction until it happens lol
20:32:33 <nsITobin> tomman mrnhmath
20:49:04 <mrnhmath> nsITobin: i highly doubt any of this is going forward
20:49:47 <mrnhmath> what was the last time the us broke up something
20:56:51 <nsITobin> well i bet chrome will be seperated from google one way or another
20:57:06 <nsITobin> or the advertising business
20:57:49 <nsITobin> it will be interesting to see if Mozilla will re-set the precident of being a browser services and ad business like apple was
23:07:38 <nsITobin> weeeeeeeeeeeeeee *zirch* https://dpaste.com/F39NLCHPN
23:54:13 <Harzilein> ahoy :)
23:57:03 <nsITobin> hey