-
Harzilein
p dig
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Harzilein
oops
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franstam
eh Harzilein where u playing pirates
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franstam
i know that command p fish
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franstam
p love aye
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Harzilein
:)
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Harzilein
aye makes p love a no-op though
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franstam
where u playing
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Harzilein
xeromem
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Harzilein
and we happen to need three more players for next season
-
Harzilein
so feel free to join us on rising sun
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franstam
where is that
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Harzilein
irc.xeromem.com
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nsITobin
night seamonkey
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franstam
ok tell me more later i gtg chat with u again
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njsg
tomman: what is your UA? OS?
-
njsg
tomman: I think the only thing I read on his post suggesting a problem was him blocking older versions of Windows NT - I mean, I'm guessing the Firefox part of the UA string won't be triggering yet, but if it does, well, then I guess that needs fixing
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njsg
tobin: if *all* distros are on wayland by 2027, I won't be using Linux-based systems by 2027, I guess.
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njsg
0509|21:13:31 < Tekk> Most of the DE screensavers are shit forks of xscreensaver <-- one issue he repeatedly mentions is that a lot of them seem to have worse designs for screen locking, sounding like there are two ways to lock at least an X11 screen: xscreensaver or vlock -a.
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njsg
things like error conditions or corner cases leading to unlocked screens in other screensavers with a screen locking feature
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njsg
tomman: if GCC is outputting wrong code, that surely does look like a bug, my only guess would really be that someone somewhere writing code for GCC read "Pentium" and thought "oh it means IA-32", forgot how long IA-32 spans, and added that...
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njsg
0510|14:49:15 < UsL> yes, we desperately need a anti-enshitification movement <-- "broken by design" as a slogan has existed for years, so I guess there'll at least be the fight against DRM; also, anything on that route would hopefully be mentioned by Cory Doctorow at some point
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njsg
tomman: I think it's imgur that has opengraph or twitter meta tags which don't work for me, I need to see if some UA makes these load as images...
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Harzilein
njsg: yikes, i retain some remnant of "framebuffers are optional" from my formative years.
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Harzilein
njsg: the wayland thing has secondary effects for sure. but if it's all broken by 2027, we can work it out.
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njsg
I think the main thing might be having enough people gathering around X11 to start a fork of Xorg. Who else has been contributing changes besides NetBSD?
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Harzilein
i'd hope openbsd too?
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Harzilein
edbrowse (3.8.12-1) UNRELEASED; urgency=medium
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Harzilein
* new upstream version
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Harzilein
-- Sebastian Humenda <shumenda⊙gd> Mon, 05 May 2025 09:13:56 +0200
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Harzilein
:)
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Harzilein
nice
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frg_Away
wayland suppor is probabyl needed later. I have no time and I am mostly on windows anyway. Stuff resides mostly in widget. Can provaide a patch queue if someone wants to start doing backports.
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Harzilein
patch queue => you'll keep using hg?
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frg_Away
yes.
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frg_Away
git is unsuiteable fdor doing backports. Would take forever to rebase stuff.
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Harzilein
"git is unsuiteable", seamonkey dev claims :3
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frg_Away
If were not for the mq extension it would not matter. Also Tortoise Hg is such a convient tool. They can put phab and all the stuff where the sun does not shine.
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njsg
meanwhile, the latest in barrier of entry is Anubis™.
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njsg
Kind of makes CloudFlare look acceptable, IMHO.
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tomman
I'll take Anubis over Clownflare, but some sites are already starting to crank it up to "System Requirements: overclocked Core i9/Threadripper"
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frg_Away
gitlab wip updated
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tomman
njsg: JWZs is still messing with his blocklists, but at least he dropped the latest FF ESR UA from his "naughty" list
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tomman
he hasn't also blocked my "special" UA yet, but I guess it doesn't smell enough to a bout :D
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tomman
--bot
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tomman
And imgur really really REALLY doesn't want you watching images without a valid referer tag, it seems
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tomman
...is there an addon compatible with SeaMonkey that can arbitrarily inject/manipulate HTTP headers?
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Harzilein
njsg: anubis is fine as much as it "promises" any reasonable competent reader can make sense of the code.
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Harzilein
reasonably*
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Harzilein
and indeed i can get challenges
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grobi
hello seamonkeys :)
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grobi
can somone offer me some nice links about what i all can do with that composer of seamonkey, please :) ?
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nsITobin
have you read the help for it in-application?
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grobi
just a bit
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grobi
but maybe somone has some experiences with it here, i thought and might be able to tell me abou some services that i could use for publishing with it??
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grobi
i tried with a 'write.as' account but that seems not to work, cause it won't let you except you copy paste your edited text there
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grobi
somthing different: i have trouble to log in to a webpage i can login to with firefox.. do i need to change preferences?
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njsg
grobi: depends on the page, settings-wise, you can always try playing with the three built-in user-agent strings, if that does not work, you can try setting different UA strings manually (if that works, you can define a per-domain UA override for that domain); now it's possible the problem is it requires features not implemented yet. Decent-ish pages will at least print some error to the JS console that
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njsg
you can use to track down what's missing (better pages have error handling that allows it to work, lookin' at you Cloudflare and Anubis)
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njsg
...
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njsg
well, then.
-
» njsg was doing the second message of that
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nsITobin
if they are using chatzilla restarting closes irc remember
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nsITobin
njsg:
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njsg
grobi: with a suitable machine and enough time, you can always try several Firefox versions to see when does it start working (now the site might somehow hit some threshold or might just need a cookie set to work, so this might still not uncover what's missing. I guess binary search is appropriate here.
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njsg
grobi: once you narrow down to the Firefox release where it starts working, you can try to figure out which of the changes is behind it, or at least mention that it works starting with that version
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njsg
nsITobin: hopefully there's always logbot too
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njsg
grobi: besides JS features, it could also be related to HTTP headers (/me looks at Cloudflare's self-DDoS-because-you-don't-have-Origin:)
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grobi
njsg, thank you for your answer, unluckily i just found out, that seamonkey is not the right browser for the distro i'm on ..
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njsg
... oh, why?
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grobi
.. right now. It just take way too moch space in my home folder
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grobi
i'm on porteus savefile and had to notice, that even 1,5GB added to my savefile was enough to serve space for seamonkey
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njsg
There is also the WIP branch, for which there might be builds (are these on archive.seamonkey-project.org?), but whether these can actually have the missing features might be a shot in the dark, as there are also other features temporarily missing in that branch
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grobi
was not enough^
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njsg
you mean profile or the size of the program files?
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njsg
for the former it might be possible to disable features like disk cache, but it will still be a though situation if you hit the space limit. places db might grow but for that one you could set self-deletion of older history, I'm not sure if that helps much but should at least prevent excessive growth (actually, wasn't there a newer setting that adapted to existing space? how's that one?)
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grobi
seamonkey itself i installed and activated here as an xzm module like all other apps here on porteus-linux is not that big
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grobi
but it installe a tremendous amoount of config? files in my homefolder ..
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grobi
don't know why..
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njsg
re: composer I intend to some day see how the publish code currently works, I haven't used "Publish" there, at least not this decade. Maybe someone else knows how it works
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njsg
grobi: how big is too big there?
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grobi
i will install seamonkey to another distro soon and will try it
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grobi
njsg, it took ~1,4GB in my homefolder which is not normal i guess??
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grobi
so no wonder it just runs bad on a live-system with a now 3GB save-file ..
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njsg
grobi: and this is just profile data, not the program files? All under ~/.mozilla or is this ~ overall?
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njsg
grobi: I'm thinking the likeliest source for that would perhaps be cache, but nowadays isn't that in ~/.cache?
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grobi
all under ~/.mozilla
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grobi
i did not even look at the cache yet lol
-
» grobi is proving cache
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njsg
maybe also message storage if you're using M&N and saving for offline usage. But here really it'd be appropriate to check the subdirectories and files and see if anything stands out
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njsg
if .mozilla is 1.4 GiB, unless you have dozens of profiles you've used for some time (probably not the case, if I understood correctly you just started checking it out?), there's probably something that stands out.
-
njsg
also, meaning .mozilla/seamonkey - as .mozilla could also have e.g. firefox (or did firefox change their directory?)
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grobi
yes yes
-
grobi
so now i freed 2,2GB from my ~/.mozilla/seamonkey/ and my ~/.cache/mozilla/seamonkey/ in total
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njsg
that 2,2 was cache plus what else?
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grobi
thus actually i could run my savefilesize at 1,5GB with comfort
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Sompi
Seems that gcc 11.2.0 does not use CMOV instructions at all
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Sompi
no matter what CPU target
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grobi
njsg, ~/.mozilla/seamonkey/ and my ~/.cache/mozilla/seamonkey/
-
Sompi
also I cannot get gcc 14.2 to produce CMOVs when building my spreadsheet program
-
grobi
todays time is spare but during the next days i will look at seamonkey on another distro and if there is somthing like that either i let you know..
-
Sompi
tomman: Maybe the code generator does not produce CMOVs at all? Maybe some libraries have inline assembly that erroneously contain CMOV instructions for i586 target?
-
tomman
Sompi: In my case I was crosscompiling with mingw
-
grobi
btw i was testing it here on an alpha release but from the current slack-repos so no wonder that something can go wrong but maybe i can find out why..
-
tomman
...which on Debian is still GCC 12
-
grobi
but this i will discuss at the porteus-forum
-
grobi
sorry though njsg fif i made you some hedaches ...
-
Sompi
and seems that gcc 14.2 refuses to compile anything that has a call to gets()
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Sompi
I have a use case where it is absolutely not a problem
-
njsg
grobi: no worries, just trying to figure out where to look for. the figure sounded too large.
-
Sompi
hmm, it still compiles when I use -std=c99
-
Sompi
but again, it does not produce CMOVs
-
Sompi
maybe the code generator itself does not use them at all
-
Sompi
tomman: What libraries did you use with the problematic project? Are you sure that the project itself does not have inline assembly somewhere, with CMOV instructions?
-
tomman
not at all
-
tomman
And I built the libraries myself too
-
grobi
njsg, i agree !:)
-
tomman
it's a Super Mario 64 port built from this:
github.com/sm64pc/sm64ex
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tomman
and also built the dependencies, SDL 1.2, GLEW and libiconv
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tomman
if I ask for a Pentium 4 executable, I get something with SSE2, as expected
-
tomman
if I ask for a Pentium III executable, I get something with SSE, as expected
-
tomman
if I ask for a i686, I get the CMOVs and nothing else
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tomman
if I ask for i586/pentium... I get CMOVs and a executable that crashes and burn
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Sompi
even with -O3 I cannot get the compiler to output CMOVs
-
tomman
(Originally I used prebuilt deps from mingw repos, but that netted me a executable that would run on a Pentium III, unless a gamepad was plugged, then it would crash due to some Netburst-specific instruction getting involved, thus why I decided to crosscompile the deps too)
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Sompi
hmm, actually no
-
Sompi
the -g flag seems to disable cmovs
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Sompi
when I remove the -g flag, it produces cmovs
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Sompi
but not when the target architecture is i586
-
Sompi
only when it is i686
-
Sompi
at least that's how GCC 11.2 works
-
Sompi
and 14.2
-
Sompi
so the bug is PROBABLY in some library, and not in the code generator
-
njsg
which C library?
-
Sompi
I don't know
-
tomman
i686-w64-mingw32-gcc (GCC) 12-win32 is what I got here
-
tomman
(current Debian stable ships GCC 12 for everything)
-
tomman
hmmm, wonder what does that -g flag
-
Sompi
It adds the debugging symbols
-
tomman
ah, that
-
Sompi
And apparently also disables CMOVs
-
Sompi
I'll try with Devuan's GCC 12.2 too
-
tomman
Hmmm, I should try a build too, but I will also check what additional CFLAGS are those makefiles adding
-
tomman
SDL's config.log already tells me -g is there
-
Sompi
it refuses to compile to 32-bit, even with -S, when it does not have the 32-bit libraries...
-
tomman
CFLAGS = -g -O2
-
tomman
apparently libiconv defaults to those too
-
Sompi
what is the apt package name for 32-bit cross-compiling libraries?
-
tomman
mingw-w64
-
Sompi
actually it does not seem to have any libraries at all...
-
Sompi
I'm talking about Debian and gcc
-
Sompi
I remember that there used to be a package named build-essentials or something and it contained most development libraries, but it does not seem to exist anymore
-
tomman
yes, on Debian, mingw-w64 installs both 32 and 64-bit mingw crosscompilers
-
tomman
ah, that one is for native builds
-
Sompi
I'm compiling for Linux
-
tomman
build-essential then
-
Sompi
but it does not exist
-
tomman
build-essential:amd64/bookworm 12.9 uptodate
-
tomman
build-essential:i386 not installed
-
tomman
that's on this Debian stable box
-
Sompi
so it was build-essential, not build-essentials!
-
Sompi
I probably also need build-essential-i386
-
tomman
Not really, although the rare times I need a native 32-bit Linux build, I use a chroot instead
-
tomman
far less hassle that way
-
tomman
Hmmm, GLEW's makefile does default to -O2 only
-
tomman
no -g unless you're specifically aiming for a debug version
-
tomman
and sm64ex itself has no -g either (or -O2)
-
tomman
no, wait, it does
-
tomman
their makefile has like a zillion of BLAH_FLAGS that eventually get appended into the actual CFLAGS
-
Sompi
I installed build-essentials and it still does not find any libraries...
-
Sompi
and why does the SET command print out some weird source code instead of environment variables
-
Sompi
debian has gone too far
-
tomman
...the hell, sm64ex has literally one set of OPT_FLAGS for _every_ source file
-
Sompi
how do I see the environment variables
-
tomman
some have -O2, some have -O3, some have -g, and there is even CPU-specific stuff (for example if you're building a native N64 ROM)
-
Sompi
it still refuses to compile...
-
Sompi
Why does it even need those libraries with the -S switch? It's not going to link anything anyway
-
tomman
Hmmmmm... gcc has a flag to enable "conditional moves", -mcmove
-
tomman
...why
-
tomman
anyway, a red herring - nothing is using that flag anyway
-
Sompi
normally it doesn't seem to use cmoves for 64-bit targets
-
Sompi
only for 32-bit
-
tomman
And in any case, that option is not for x86 targets
-
tomman
only for some more exotic stuff like... SH-4
-
Sompi
ok, now I finally got it to compile a 32-bit object file and generate its disassembly
-
Sompi
With the default optimization settings it does not produce CMOVs at all. With -O3 it does, but only for -march=i686
-
Sompi
With -march=586 it does not use CMOVs
-
Sompi
gcc 12.2
-
Harzilein
tomman: SH-4 less exotic than or1k :D
-
tomman
Outside the Dreamcast, who even bothered with SH-4?
-
Sompi
and gcc 12.2 seems to produce cmovs also for 64-bit
-
tomman
Sega only did because their CEO was best golf buddies with Hitachi's CEO
-
tomman
...OK, I have a digital TV tuner box with a SH-4 based SoC...
-
Sompi
actually those other gcc versions produce cmovs for 64-bit too. I must have typoed something previously
-
tomman
this flag looks promising: -fif-conversion
-
tomman
and according to the manpage, there should be a -fno-if-conversion
-
tomman
that one can generate CMOVs, and seems to be architecture independent
-
tomman
it's enabled by default at pretty much every -O level but -Og
-
tomman
yarchive.net/comp/linux/cmov.html ha, Linus hates conditional moves :D
-
Sompi
I cannot get gcc 12.2 to produce conditional moves even with the -fif-conversion flag
-
tomman
I will try later a build with that, need to get the ol' Socket 7 rig plugged into action
-
tomman
but first... some lunch~
-
Sompi
I still think that the cmov instruction comes from some inline assembly in some library
-
Harzilein
i don't dare turning on my socket 7 rig :D
-
Sompi
because the code generator clearly avoids that instruction when the target platform is not at least i686 or newer
-
frg_Away
I tolerate off topic and am happy to do it one or twice a day too but if you want to discuss ancient cpus and compiler instructions in detail pleaese dd it elsewhere. It's not even remotly useful for compiling SeaMonkey.
-
nsITobin
if i was up for community building this would be a great time to highlight that I am always on the forefront of off-topic conversations!
-
nsITobin
but i am gonna make a blog instead :P
-
nsITobin
hope everyone is doing well
-
nsITobin
lfs aquired
-
njsg
0511|19:07:02 < Sompi> how do I see the environment variables <-- like env, or the ones present when gcc is executed?
-
njsg
happy to go elsewhere for that too, although I don't have anything else to offer as a comment right now other than the above and that, at a last resort, I'd probably try to grep compiler tools directories for what that'd be in assembly.