well, GSM-Arena loves hanging SeaMonkey lately

...but not always

but when it does, it's always the same: 100% CPU usage on the main process, no way to interrupt it, have to SIGTERM it

what is the status of signing of SeaMonkey on Windows ?

0704|00:26:13 <+nsITobin> x=on/off <-- now that'd be software flow control!

^S^Q^S^Q

Status meeting in 20 minutes - wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2025-07-06

Well as far as status meetings go I am for radical solutions that expand the scope of the seamonkey project and a multi-pronged strategy using the resources spread all over the place largely by my last war.

multi-pronged? there's a pitch there to merge the codebase with TDE and call it "Trident".

mmm, I see and anticipate no way in which that could be confusing for a browser

njsg: I would love to merge qt3 and xpfe 1.8.1

into some legacy monster that would eat my enemies

but we have more up to date tools than that

no, that's plain mozilla you want, it's a 'zilla, after all

although it's hard for me to see the mascot a a monster

I'm too used to these graphics that were used at Directory Mozilla

Red Mozilla was betrayed as much as green mozilla.

Status meeting in 10 minutes - wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2025-07-06

I guess the Trident project would need a blue mozilla then, a blue-colored merger with KDE's mascot perhaps

njsg: thereisonlyxul.org/res/1d7c3451269a…6dd4d6283e3/skin/img/binoczilla.png ?

:P

At the end of the day I still need a browser, mailer and calendar tool. Which is currently SeaMonkey. Don't need pwa junk os extensions or other stuff.

yeah well There's a SeaMonkey for that.. namely 2.53 always ;) but I think there needs to be MOAR

Status meeting in 5 minutes - wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2025-07-06

Not withut new devs. Currently its chicken and egg forever.

njsg: as long as we don't get a purple mozilla, it might get confused with Barney

IanN: mmm, that might be just a radeon GPU and VGA output away (there was (is?) a bug where colors get strongly changed in some cards)

with the free driver, that is

hi .*

rsx11m hi

hi rsx11m

howdy! (yawn...)

thanks 8-)

Status meeting time - wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings/2025-07-06

Who's taking minutes?

me do

thanks

Nominees for Friends of the Fish Tank?

not the weather

I nominate the tr l10n team. Seeams almost complet now if I include the unreviewd stuff.

seconded

thirded

Action Items

bau

agreed

Status of the SeaMonkey Infrastructure

probably nothing new for the signing key?

If I am gonna do an add-ons site I need a standard vm preferably at afterburst which is exceedingly cheaper than using your azure cloud infra .. otherwise I need access to the azure system for development its self.

not as far as I am aware, unless MS roll it out to the rest of the world or we find a different way of doing it

vps*

nsITobin best to ask ewong for this. I wouldn't tackle it until the tb add-ons site is gone.

be nice to find something that does both infra and equivalent of frontdoor

Status of the SeaMonkey Source Tree

does anyone know when Thunderbird will switch to their amov4 fork?

Apples plans to discontinue Intel support. This will affect Rosetta 2 sooner or later too. But no time to look into native arm builds right now. Probably need a few more backports and notarizing.

sounds like fun

Don't know but out of the loop.

I have no.. useful.. comment at this time regarding Apple.

anyone used keycdn?

nope

no, at least I don't recall the name

content delivery thingy

yeah, I'll contact ewong about it

next?

I think we are pausing for a commercial break right now ;-)

Or IanN is fighting with his network setup again :)

Status of the SeaMonkey Source Tree

There already :)

yeah, wasn't sure if the discussion was about that or in the infra...

at some level it is all connected ;)

for macOS arm its a bit mixed but mostly source I think.

Should still be able to cross compile. Just the notarizing part proabbly not.

ewong emailed

Release Train

we need more trains

steam trains?

MAYBE

Looking into a few sec backports next but nothing so far which needs an urgent release I think. 2.53.22 seems to be a 'quiet' release

nsITobin: maybe see if there's any surviving Sm1 that you can buy, they look nice.

IanN its a bit source but can you look a the 2.53.22 l10n stuff. Need to decide what to do with access keys. Dorp the patches and compy 2.53 kyes to central or vice versa.

and 2.53.21 is the 'quiet' release :)

But trains.. in my view there should be the suiterunner train, the 2.53 train, and the "three" train

and an OS train

frg: is it easy to see why the keys were changed or is that in a sea of automated reformatting changes?

They were all manually changed by the localizers. IanN cleaned up some later but it is a mess. I think we need to have one level in bot repos and work from there. Some languages are more correct than others too.

I did patches for the keys only so that we can take or drop them for each language.

^both repos

Look at the Bug 1964042 ones: gitlab.com/frg/seamonkey-253-patche…l10n-release/patches?ref_type=heads

Usually one patch fro alingment which should be ok and one for keys.

Let's have 2.53 as our point of truth, just formatted so it is easy to transplant to central

IanN then we should drop the keys patches and sync 2.53 ones to central?

frg: localisers may have a view

clang formatting for 2.53?

yeah. Other options is to use all what is currently in 2.53 which is synced and fix it out for coming release in both.

nsITobin no pontoon formatting.

central is not 100% ok but 2.53 is a mess.

frg: central l10n is missing runtime requirements for that tree.. i identified several during my experiments

let's starting by getting 2.53 pontoon formatted

and sync'ing those changes through to central

make it easier to spot when l10n changes are made on central

That is already done with the patches.

and pick them up

Syncing central to 2.53 is now easy. usually can just put the git formatted patch in the queue and fold it.

A few minor issues only for different variables for later stuff not in 2.53

Extensions Tracking

bau

yet another commercial break?

yes, it seems Mr. Gates wants to show us something about a scanner

uh, I thought stuff had moved away from blue backgrounds already?

woah

sorry, trying to do too many things at the same time

2.Next, Feature List, Planning and Roundtable

I think we should drop the composer. It hasn't been effective or up to the task of authoring for the web or is even aware of many modern web technologies for the past decade or longer.

yo, I'm late~

hello world~

nsITobin: it's still quite useful as a html editor, and it does share code with M&N (so it doesn't even mean the entire thing is implemented separately)

Mail and News uses some UI elements and the editor widget

I know

whether it's actually suitable for editing web pages does depend on what kind of thing the user wants in a webpage. For regular web pages, of the light kind of information we'll often see in personal sites, it's quite ok

either way, I don't think we're at a point where there's a pressing need to consider removing composer

No one edits html webpages and if they do they would likely be doing it in a plain text editor or web interface

... the newsgroup has at least a couple people who once in a while post questions about how to do something with it or who otherwise say they're using it

nsITobin there are still people who use it and would be extremly unhappy. Already got some complaints about the notion the last time. in the support groups. As long as it does not block any future updates I would not remove it. And currently it clearly does not block anything.

agree with njsg, don't see a reason for pulling it out

(also, if it had no users, the do-not-send= issue would probably not even have been mentioned in mozillazine

yes, it's not sophisticated but fine for simple things

it wasn't that great in 2002.. and it isn't that great now but okay i guess

there is always users under the rocks, indeed

this is why SeaMonkey is still alive as a project

now there are some issues that need checking, some of which also affect the html editor for mail, I should get back to trying to fix what I can.

well maybe they can start contributing to the stuff they force us to retain

has that not previously occured

one of my tasks is to look at improving some of the look and feel of it, but lots of things on my task list

For starters it would need sftp support and other things to be really useful but I am not using it :)

one could also just standalone it

but remove it from the suite

why?

exactly...

it wouldn't be a "suite" anymore then

if I wanted to separate the components, I'd not be such a SeaMonkey fan

This suite originally supported componitized installation

I mean, the same could be said about Chatzilla

while nowadays there's the UI too, back when it was separated, that was a major drawback for Firefox and Thunderbird

It would be more work to publish a separate version like BlueGriffon.

AOB

next meeting is in 3 weeks time (27th July)

thanks for your time today, next meeting same bat time, same bat channel

see you!

Real life and family issues pile up so will not participating in infra or other strateging changes. Sorry and nothing personal. Still struggling with source coee is enough :)

^code

well to be fair a lot of this should have been done a decade ago or 15 years ago when I first brought it up

In general we do what we can.

What we need is somebody rich and bored to dump $1M on the project :/

alas, web browsers are unsexy for new developers

tomman: or $1B

tomman you would still need people to spend the money wisely. I am not one.

frg: SM themed pinball machines?

frg: you wouldn't buy a gold plated SeaMonkey car? :D

frg: No sir. I do what I am allowed to do by others.. Anything else gets me attacked and sabotaged by people who would prefer I stop existing.

tomman no

IanN friend can do one if I ask :)

Point is, new devs these days don't even like touching "ooooold codebases written in icky languages" - even the Linux kernel is starting to face this problem (which is kinda offset by Big Money corporate interests that still fund large parts of kernel dev)

nsITobin in any case you xref and storage are great. Just for add-ons and other stuff we need something in own infra.

You have to get developers and users alike to buy into an ecosystem

nsITobin: loads of love for you and your xref

not just an application if you aren't going to follow the mainstream .. or not follow it quickly enough

yes but its chicken and egg again. Users need support for current websites and devs need a reason to do it.

And I still think open source for browsers is dying.

then expand so there is something for everyone and foster a group to come together and get their dreams and wants done too

nsITobin: that requires $$$$ and public interest, I'm afraid

nsITobin: the only reason I'm not using xref on a daily basis is me currently not being trying to understand, track down, etc things in the code a lot. otherwise I'd be there a lot, so yeah, thanks a lot for it!

I think the web browser is moving on beyond that setup.. but that doesn't end all web clients..

again: getting developers interested in projects like ours these days is like splitting atoms with a screwdriver and a Dremel

njsg: I can give you some hints on how to use the xref

we're getting the browser war issues, but worse, with even less of a line to fight at, and now floss projects also joining the evil side

money!

AI!

ugh, the scourge of AI

I had completely forgotten about that threatscape too

the evil side in this context being any that does end up contributing to even less compatibility

browsers seem to be driving web site development which seems to be the wrong way round

tomman and egos.

these days, even locking out all but a few ssl implementations is cool

tomman: money will come from those who care but can't or don't have the time to code.. see github sponsorships

nsITobin: thanks, if needed I'll ask when I get back deep in it again :-)

nsITobin: And here is the problem: your random Joe Browser will _never_ donate to anything, so that leaves us reliant in corporate sponsorships

unlike Joe Bowser, that may take Peach to the basement

:D

It is like wayland and x11. Holy wars are fought here. And results in more fragmentation.

"Sorry Mario, your browser is not compatible with this castle"

:-D

the more I learn about Wayland, the more I enforce a total ban on that at this house

"your use case doesn't exist, GO AWAY"

How about this.. I just do whatever it is I think is the correct course and you all decide if you wanna stick a seamonkey sticker on it.. That way things can materalize.

"the fact Windows and Mac and X11 did $FEATURE for ages doesn't mean it's a good feature CLOSED WONTFIX BEMODERN"

0706|16:11:17 <+tomman> again: getting developers interested in projects like ours these days is like splitting atoms with a screwdriver and a Dremel <-- so what you're saying is we should pitch SeaMonkey to CERN?

It wouldn't be a bad idea, yo~

anywqy cu here as away

njsg: just tell them to be careful with it near the LHC

tomman: eh, what could possibly go wrong?

yeah, indeed re: meeting, cya .* :-)

I am setting my priorities technologically for the rest of the year.. Here is what I intend to offer SeaMonkey.. Add-ons Site and other PHP crap.. My suiterunner project.. and the three project on modern mozilla as well as a brandable OS based on Snowball.. just with SystemD and Wayland. So get them stickers ready.

The Three Project is defined roughly as Merging modern Firefox and Thunderbird into a new suite.

unless I uncover the xbl to webcomponent secrets then 2.53 goes up to central directwise

as everyone intends

;)

as I have said for years now.. Options are needed regardless what sticker is on the box

It is a grand vision.. and totally achieveable to a great degree just by my self.

more than enough to bootstrap intrest

and contribution i would think

Why are we doing this?

Some of this has already been touched on above:

Using toolkit means we share more core files with Firefox, Sunbird, Thunderbird etc, this means we benefit from their fixes to the core code, and they benefit from ours.

It will be easier for extensions that work with Firefox/Thunderbird to be compatible with SeaMonkey.

no longer applicable

Target Audience

Our target audience consists of:

people currently using the Mozilla Suite

no one

people currently using Netscape 4-7 who would like a product that feels similar

barely anyone

people looking for an integrated suite of internet applications

too old and insecure to be trusted

corporate users looking to deploy a single product

diapers work for those too old and insecure to be trusted...

sorry i was flooded out

coperate users.. yeah right

advanced users.. where are they now

and devs and webdevs

.. nop

Netscape didn't just have one product

Mozilla has never had just one product

seamonkey in the PAST didn't need it cause all it did was just rebuild and fix toolkit patches from 2.0 on

well 2.1 on 2.0 had lots of progress

there is also the simple fact that as-is seamonkey 2.53 is not in any way useable or useful for me personally.. too much removed not enough added

and i think you will find that to be the case outside this channel and mozillazine and some newsgroup

maybe this project was unaware of how many times I tried to get people to switch to seamonkey or go help the seamonkey project before I left to waste my talent and vision for Moonchild

suppose I could lay out my vision on mozillazine.. been about a decade since I did that.. see what they say.. cause again.. talk of money and initial investment and development intrest.. chicken or the egg problem.. well in modern genetic science.. and also a movie in the 90s teaches us .. we can cheat the hell out of any bootstrap paradox by simply having the audacity to do so.

and I think that is an apt metaphore given our discussions on various dinosaurs

So I'm going the Jurassic Park route

XUL uh, finds a way?

Damn straight.

"Nokia-led plan for AI gigafactory" oh what now...

I dunno what else there is I can say.. all i can do now is nothing.. or something.

as I said.. just see what you all would put your sticker on.

what else can i do njsg

does nokia still own bell labs?

Nokia these days is basically "brand for sale, contact us"

like Hyundai air conditioners and Aiwa rice cookers

or Polaroid CR2032 batteries

having said that, I heard HMD's license to use the Nokia brand on cellphones was about to elapse

tomman: doesn't disprove my points

does it

wake me up when Honest Abdul's Appliances And Feed is selling "Mozilla"-brand wire strippers or "CaptainTobin"-brand fridges :)

I can hook you up with some BinOC flipflops and tote bags and shirts..

CaptainTobin: if there has been a split, I'm not aware of it

CaptainTobin: I think it's under "Nokia Research", which already existed before (not sure if under that same name or not, but they had e.g. professors working there too, and IIRC it was a separate entity back then too)

ah

tomman: oh? what's going to happen, reverts back to Nokia?

They *could* grab it if so, there'd be a market there...

but you can now buy Nokia-brand smart TVs

(also re: Nokia research, before or around the time of the sale to Microsoft)

made by who knows why (likely TCL or one of their affiliates)

tomman: Vestel, of course. If it's made by someone else, my bet would be Vestel.

seamonkey-2.53-1.smos1.rpm COULD be in this projects future..

but maybe not...

I want to know why no one can see the potental in these things..