-
tomman
well, GSM-Arena loves hanging SeaMonkey lately
-
tomman
...but not always
-
tomman
but when it does, it's always the same: 100% CPU usage on the main process, no way to interrupt it, have to SIGTERM it
-
guest_
what is the status of signing of SeaMonkey on Windows ?
-
njsg
0704|00:26:13 <+nsITobin> x=on/off <-- now that'd be software flow control!
-
njsg
^S^Q^S^Q
-
IanN
-
nsITobin
Well as far as status meetings go I am for radical solutions that expand the scope of the seamonkey project and a multi-pronged strategy using the resources spread all over the place largely by my last war.
-
njsg
multi-pronged? there's a pitch there to merge the codebase with TDE and call it "Trident".
-
njsg
mmm, I see and anticipate no way in which that could be confusing for a browser
-
nsITobin
njsg: I would love to merge qt3 and xpfe 1.8.1
-
nsITobin
into some legacy monster that would eat my enemies
-
nsITobin
but we have more up to date tools than that
-
njsg
no, that's plain mozilla you want, it's a 'zilla, after all
-
njsg
although it's hard for me to see the mascot a a monster
-
njsg
I'm too used to these graphics that were used at Directory Mozilla
-
nsITobin
Red Mozilla was betrayed as much as green mozilla.
-
IanN
-
njsg
I guess the Trident project would need a blue mozilla then, a blue-colored merger with KDE's mascot perhaps
-
nsITobin
-
nsITobin
:P
-
frg
At the end of the day I still need a browser, mailer and calendar tool. Which is currently SeaMonkey. Don't need pwa junk os extensions or other stuff.
-
nsITobin
yeah well There's a SeaMonkey for that.. namely 2.53 always ;) but I think there needs to be MOAR
-
IanN
-
frg
Not withut new devs. Currently its chicken and egg forever.
-
IanN
njsg: as long as we don't get a purple mozilla, it might get confused with Barney
-
njsg
IanN: mmm, that might be just a radeon GPU and VGA output away (there was (is?) a bug where colors get strongly changed in some cards)
-
njsg
with the free driver, that is
-
njsg
hi .*
-
frg
rsx11m hi
-
IanN
hi rsx11m
-
rsx11m
howdy! (yawn...)
-
» njsg pours rsx11m an espresso
-
rsx11m
thanks 8-)
-
IanN
-
IanN
Who's taking minutes?
-
frg
me do
-
IanN
thanks
-
IanN
Nominees for Friends of the Fish Tank?
-
njsg
not the weather
-
frg
I nominate the tr l10n team. Seeams almost complet now if I include the unreviewd stuff.
-
njsg
seconded
-
» frg buys two 'e'
-
IanN
thirded
-
IanN
Action Items
-
frg
bau
-
IanN
agreed
-
IanN
Status of the SeaMonkey Infrastructure
-
frg
probably nothing new for the signing key?
-
nsITobin
If I am gonna do an add-ons site I need a standard vm preferably at afterburst which is exceedingly cheaper than using your azure cloud infra .. otherwise I need access to the azure system for development its self.
-
IanN
not as far as I am aware, unless MS roll it out to the rest of the world or we find a different way of doing it
-
nsITobin
vps*
-
frg
nsITobin best to ask ewong for this. I wouldn't tackle it until the tb add-ons site is gone.
-
IanN
be nice to find something that does both infra and equivalent of frontdoor
-
IanN
Status of the SeaMonkey Source Tree
-
nsITobin
does anyone know when Thunderbird will switch to their amov4 fork?
-
frg
Apples plans to discontinue Intel support. This will affect Rosetta 2 sooner or later too. But no time to look into native arm builds right now. Probably need a few more backports and notarizing.
-
rsx11m
sounds like fun
-
frg
Don't know but out of the loop.
-
nsITobin
I have no.. useful.. comment at this time regarding Apple.
-
IanN
anyone used keycdn?
-
frg
nope
-
njsg
no, at least I don't recall the name
-
rsx11m
content delivery thingy
-
IanN
yeah, I'll contact ewong about it
-
frg
next?
-
rsx11m
I think we are pausing for a commercial break right now ;-)
-
frg
Or IanN is fighting with his network setup again :)
-
IanN
Status of the SeaMonkey Source Tree
-
frg
There already :)
-
IanN
yeah, wasn't sure if the discussion was about that or in the infra...
-
nsITobin
at some level it is all connected ;)
-
frg
for macOS arm its a bit mixed but mostly source I think.
-
frg
Should still be able to cross compile. Just the notarizing part proabbly not.
-
IanN
ewong emailed
-
IanN
Release Train
-
nsITobin
we need more trains
-
IanN
steam trains?
-
nsITobin
MAYBE
-
frg
Looking into a few sec backports next but nothing so far which needs an urgent release I think. 2.53.22 seems to be a 'quiet' release
-
njsg
nsITobin: maybe see if there's any surviving Sm1 that you can buy, they look nice.
-
frg
IanN its a bit source but can you look a the 2.53.22 l10n stuff. Need to decide what to do with access keys. Dorp the patches and compy 2.53 kyes to central or vice versa.
-
frg
and 2.53.21 is the 'quiet' release :)
-
nsITobin
But trains.. in my view there should be the suiterunner train, the 2.53 train, and the "three" train
-
nsITobin
and an OS train
-
njsg
frg: is it easy to see why the keys were changed or is that in a sea of automated reformatting changes?
-
» njsg just wondering if these changes were from actual translator input or if there was some massive change across all l10ns for all applications changing some access keys
-
frg
They were all manually changed by the localizers. IanN cleaned up some later but it is a mess. I think we need to have one level in bot repos and work from there. Some languages are more correct than others too.
-
frg
I did patches for the keys only so that we can take or drop them for each language.
-
frg
^both repos
-
frg
-
frg
Usually one patch fro alingment which should be ok and one for keys.
-
IanN
Let's have 2.53 as our point of truth, just formatted so it is easy to transplant to central
-
frg
IanN then we should drop the keys patches and sync 2.53 ones to central?
-
IanN
frg: localisers may have a view
-
nsITobin
clang formatting for 2.53?
-
frg
yeah. Other options is to use all what is currently in 2.53 which is synced and fix it out for coming release in both.
-
frg
nsITobin no pontoon formatting.
-
frg
central is not 100% ok but 2.53 is a mess.
-
nsITobin
frg: central l10n is missing runtime requirements for that tree.. i identified several during my experiments
-
IanN
let's starting by getting 2.53 pontoon formatted
-
IanN
and sync'ing those changes through to central
-
IanN
make it easier to spot when l10n changes are made on central
-
frg
That is already done with the patches.
-
IanN
and pick them up
-
frg
Syncing central to 2.53 is now easy. usually can just put the git formatted patch in the queue and fold it.
-
frg
A few minor issues only for different variables for later stuff not in 2.53
-
IanN
Extensions Tracking
-
frg
bau
-
rsx11m
yet another commercial break?
-
njsg
yes, it seems Mr. Gates wants to show us something about a scanner
-
njsg
uh, I thought stuff had moved away from blue backgrounds already?
-
nsITobin
woah
-
IanN
sorry, trying to do too many things at the same time
-
» nsITobin starts tapdancing
-
» njsg now feels this is some EBU-UER music contest
-
IanN
2.Next, Feature List, Planning and Roundtable
-
» nsITobin Error: NS_ERROR_NOT_IMPLEMENTED
-
nsITobin
I think we should drop the composer. It hasn't been effective or up to the task of authoring for the web or is even aware of many modern web technologies for the past decade or longer.
-
tomman
yo, I'm late~
-
tomman
hello world~
-
njsg
nsITobin: it's still quite useful as a html editor, and it does share code with M&N (so it doesn't even mean the entire thing is implemented separately)
-
nsITobin
Mail and News uses some UI elements and the editor widget
-
nsITobin
I know
-
njsg
whether it's actually suitable for editing web pages does depend on what kind of thing the user wants in a webpage. For regular web pages, of the light kind of information we'll often see in personal sites, it's quite ok
-
njsg
either way, I don't think we're at a point where there's a pressing need to consider removing composer
-
nsITobin
No one edits html webpages and if they do they would likely be doing it in a plain text editor or web interface
-
njsg
... the newsgroup has at least a couple people who once in a while post questions about how to do something with it or who otherwise say they're using it
-
frg
nsITobin there are still people who use it and would be extremly unhappy. Already got some complaints about the notion the last time. in the support groups. As long as it does not block any future updates I would not remove it. And currently it clearly does not block anything.
-
rsx11m
agree with njsg, don't see a reason for pulling it out
-
njsg
(also, if it had no users, the do-not-send= issue would probably not even have been mentioned in mozillazine
-
rsx11m
yes, it's not sophisticated but fine for simple things
-
nsITobin
it wasn't that great in 2002.. and it isn't that great now but okay i guess
-
tomman
there is always users under the rocks, indeed
-
tomman
this is why SeaMonkey is still alive as a project
-
njsg
now there are some issues that need checking, some of which also affect the html editor for mail, I should get back to trying to fix what I can.
-
nsITobin
well maybe they can start contributing to the stuff they force us to retain
-
nsITobin
has that not previously occured
-
IanN
one of my tasks is to look at improving some of the look and feel of it, but lots of things on my task list
-
frg
For starters it would need sftp support and other things to be really useful but I am not using it :)
-
nsITobin
one could also just standalone it
-
nsITobin
but remove it from the suite
-
njsg
why?
-
rsx11m
exactly...
-
tomman
it wouldn't be a "suite" anymore then
-
njsg
if I wanted to separate the components, I'd not be such a SeaMonkey fan
-
nsITobin
This suite originally supported componitized installation
-
tomman
I mean, the same could be said about Chatzilla
-
njsg
while nowadays there's the UI too, back when it was separated, that was a major drawback for Firefox and Thunderbird
-
frg
It would be more work to publish a separate version like BlueGriffon.
-
frg
-
IanN
AOB
-
IanN
next meeting is in 3 weeks time (27th July)
-
IanN
thanks for your time today, next meeting same bat time, same bat channel
-
rsx11m
see you!
-
frg
Real life and family issues pile up so will not participating in infra or other strateging changes. Sorry and nothing personal. Still struggling with source coee is enough :)
-
frg
^code
-
nsITobin
well to be fair a lot of this should have been done a decade ago or 15 years ago when I first brought it up
-
frg
In general we do what we can.
-
tomman
What we need is somebody rich and bored to dump $1M on the project :/
-
tomman
alas, web browsers are unsexy for new developers
-
IanN
tomman: or $1B
-
frg
tomman you would still need people to spend the money wisely. I am not one.
-
IanN
frg: SM themed pinball machines?
-
tomman
frg: you wouldn't buy a gold plated SeaMonkey car? :D
-
nsITobin
frg: No sir. I do what I am allowed to do by others.. Anything else gets me attacked and sabotaged by people who would prefer I stop existing.
-
frg
tomman no
-
frg
IanN friend can do one if I ask :)
-
tomman
Point is, new devs these days don't even like touching "ooooold codebases written in icky languages" - even the Linux kernel is starting to face this problem (which is kinda offset by Big Money corporate interests that still fund large parts of kernel dev)
-
frg
nsITobin in any case you xref and storage are great. Just for add-ons and other stuff we need something in own infra.
-
nsITobin
You have to get developers and users alike to buy into an ecosystem
-
IanN
nsITobin: loads of love for you and your xref
-
nsITobin
not just an application if you aren't going to follow the mainstream .. or not follow it quickly enough
-
frg
yes but its chicken and egg again. Users need support for current websites and devs need a reason to do it.
-
frg
And I still think open source for browsers is dying.
-
nsITobin
then expand so there is something for everyone and foster a group to come together and get their dreams and wants done too
-
tomman
nsITobin: that requires $$$$ and public interest, I'm afraid
-
njsg
nsITobin: the only reason I'm not using xref on a daily basis is me currently not being trying to understand, track down, etc things in the code a lot. otherwise I'd be there a lot, so yeah, thanks a lot for it!
-
nsITobin
I think the web browser is moving on beyond that setup.. but that doesn't end all web clients..
-
tomman
again: getting developers interested in projects like ours these days is like splitting atoms with a screwdriver and a Dremel
-
nsITobin
njsg: I can give you some hints on how to use the xref
-
njsg
we're getting the browser war issues, but worse, with even less of a line to fight at, and now floss projects also joining the evil side
-
tomman
money!
-
tomman
AI!
-
tomman
ugh, the scourge of AI
-
tomman
I had completely forgotten about that threatscape too
-
njsg
the evil side in this context being any that does end up contributing to even less compatibility
-
IanN
browsers seem to be driving web site development which seems to be the wrong way round
-
frg
tomman and egos.
-
njsg
these days, even locking out all but a few ssl implementations is cool
-
nsITobin
tomman: money will come from those who care but can't or don't have the time to code.. see github sponsorships
-
njsg
nsITobin: thanks, if needed I'll ask when I get back deep in it again :-)
-
tomman
nsITobin: And here is the problem: your random Joe Browser will _never_ donate to anything, so that leaves us reliant in corporate sponsorships
-
njsg
unlike Joe Bowser, that may take Peach to the basement
-
tomman
:D
-
frg
It is like wayland and x11. Holy wars are fought here. And results in more fragmentation.
-
tomman
"Sorry Mario, your browser is not compatible with this castle"
-
njsg
:-D
-
tomman
the more I learn about Wayland, the more I enforce a total ban on that at this house
-
tomman
"your use case doesn't exist, GO AWAY"
-
nsITobin
How about this.. I just do whatever it is I think is the correct course and you all decide if you wanna stick a seamonkey sticker on it.. That way things can materalize.
-
tomman
"the fact Windows and Mac and X11 did $FEATURE for ages doesn't mean it's a good feature CLOSED WONTFIX BEMODERN"
-
njsg
0706|16:11:17 <+tomman> again: getting developers interested in projects like ours these days is like splitting atoms with a screwdriver and a Dremel <-- so what you're saying is we should pitch SeaMonkey to CERN?
-
tomman
It wouldn't be a bad idea, yo~
-
frg
anywqy cu here as away
-
tomman
njsg: just tell them to be careful with it near the LHC
-
njsg
tomman: eh, what could possibly go wrong?
-
njsg
yeah, indeed re: meeting, cya .* :-)
-
nsITobin
I am setting my priorities technologically for the rest of the year.. Here is what I intend to offer SeaMonkey.. Add-ons Site and other PHP crap.. My suiterunner project.. and the three project on modern mozilla as well as a brandable OS based on Snowball.. just with SystemD and Wayland. So get them stickers ready.
-
nsITobin
The Three Project is defined roughly as Merging modern Firefox and Thunderbird into a new suite.
-
nsITobin
unless I uncover the xbl to webcomponent secrets then 2.53 goes up to central directwise
-
nsITobin
as everyone intends
-
nsITobin
;)
-
nsITobin
as I have said for years now.. Options are needed regardless what sticker is on the box
-
nsITobin
It is a grand vision.. and totally achieveable to a great degree just by my self.
-
nsITobin
more than enough to bootstrap intrest
-
nsITobin
and contribution i would think
-
nsITobin
Why are we doing this?
-
nsITobin
Some of this has already been touched on above:
-
nsITobin
Using toolkit means we share more core files with Firefox, Sunbird, Thunderbird etc, this means we benefit from their fixes to the core code, and they benefit from ours.
-
nsITobin
It will be easier for extensions that work with Firefox/Thunderbird to be compatible with SeaMonkey.
-
nsITobin
no longer applicable
-
nsITobin
Target Audience
-
nsITobin
Our target audience consists of:
-
nsITobin
people currently using the Mozilla Suite
-
nsITobin
no one
-
nsITobin
people currently using Netscape 4-7 who would like a product that feels similar
-
nsITobin
barely anyone
-
nsITobin
people looking for an integrated suite of internet applications
-
nsITobin
too old and insecure to be trusted
-
nsITobin
corporate users looking to deploy a single product
-
IanN
diapers work for those too old and insecure to be trusted...
-
CaptainTobin
sorry i was flooded out
-
CaptainTobin
coperate users.. yeah right
-
CaptainTobin
advanced users.. where are they now
-
CaptainTobin
and devs and webdevs
-
CaptainTobin
.. nop
-
CaptainTobin
Netscape didn't just have one product
-
CaptainTobin
Mozilla has never had just one product
-
CaptainTobin
seamonkey in the PAST didn't need it cause all it did was just rebuild and fix toolkit patches from 2.0 on
-
CaptainTobin
well 2.1 on 2.0 had lots of progress
-
CaptainTobin
there is also the simple fact that as-is seamonkey 2.53 is not in any way useable or useful for me personally.. too much removed not enough added
-
CaptainTobin
and i think you will find that to be the case outside this channel and mozillazine and some newsgroup
-
CaptainTobin
maybe this project was unaware of how many times I tried to get people to switch to seamonkey or go help the seamonkey project before I left to waste my talent and vision for Moonchild
-
CaptainTobin
suppose I could lay out my vision on mozillazine.. been about a decade since I did that.. see what they say.. cause again.. talk of money and initial investment and development intrest.. chicken or the egg problem.. well in modern genetic science.. and also a movie in the 90s teaches us .. we can cheat the hell out of any bootstrap paradox by simply having the audacity to do so.
-
CaptainTobin
and I think that is an apt metaphore given our discussions on various dinosaurs
-
CaptainTobin
So I'm going the Jurassic Park route
-
njsg
XUL uh, finds a way?
-
CaptainTobin
Damn straight.
-
njsg
"Nokia-led plan for AI gigafactory" oh what now...
-
CaptainTobin
I dunno what else there is I can say.. all i can do now is nothing.. or something.
-
CaptainTobin
as I said.. just see what you all would put your sticker on.
-
CaptainTobin
what else can i do njsg
-
CaptainTobin
does nokia still own bell labs?
-
tomman
Nokia these days is basically "brand for sale, contact us"
-
tomman
like Hyundai air conditioners and Aiwa rice cookers
-
tomman
or Polaroid CR2032 batteries
-
tomman
having said that, I heard HMD's license to use the Nokia brand on cellphones was about to elapse
-
CaptainTobin
tomman: doesn't disprove my points
-
CaptainTobin
does it
-
tomman
wake me up when Honest Abdul's Appliances And Feed is selling "Mozilla"-brand wire strippers or "CaptainTobin"-brand fridges :)
-
CaptainTobin
I can hook you up with some BinOC flipflops and tote bags and shirts..
-
njsg
CaptainTobin: if there has been a split, I'm not aware of it
-
njsg
CaptainTobin: I think it's under "Nokia Research", which already existed before (not sure if under that same name or not, but they had e.g. professors working there too, and IIRC it was a separate entity back then too)
-
CaptainTobin
ah
-
njsg
tomman: oh? what's going to happen, reverts back to Nokia?
-
njsg
They *could* grab it if so, there'd be a market there...
-
tomman
but you can now buy Nokia-brand smart TVs
-
njsg
(also re: Nokia research, before or around the time of the sale to Microsoft)
-
tomman
made by who knows why (likely TCL or one of their affiliates)
-
njsg
tomman: Vestel, of course. If it's made by someone else, my bet would be Vestel.
-
CaptainTobin
seamonkey-2.53-1.smos1.rpm COULD be in this projects future..
-
CaptainTobin
but maybe not...
-
CaptainTobin
I want to know why no one can see the potental in these things..
-
nsITobin