news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42953508 oooh!

someone escalated our case to the Hackernews Customer Service!

well, and as usual, half of the Internet still insists that it's a "ME" problem

stay Klassy, IRC~

"why Clownflare should remove the ability for their users to let them increase their security level?"

while refusing to recognize that the problem is their craptcha that basically blocks browsers by desgin

--design

i swear, sometimes I believe half of the Internet work for Big Tech :/

in the meanwhile, this is half of the Internet for me: media.tsdx.net.ve/clownflare_blocked.png

well, it's official: Seamonkey cannot get past the craptcha anymore

even using the inspector trick, I can get the box to render, but no checkbox ever appears

instead the page reloads over and over and over

I'm effectively blocked from ever using CF-protected websites

they keep changing crap over and over for no good reason

Anyone who decides my issues are a "ME" problem just inhearited me as their issue.

i mean after this long that HAS to be clear to everyone right tomman?

Well, now let's hope the request from help to Hackernews Customer Support does get a Clownflare supremo involved

but I'm not holding my breath

just got told this somewhere else: "If the domain admins want to harden their security level and as a result, that presents 2-bit browsers from accessing the site then that's not Cloudflare's issue."

Anyway... i guess I've been officially banned from half of the Internet, and worse, it wasn't by Drumpf or Maduro decree :/

tomman: would it help if I invaded? cause I doubt it..

nah, don't bother

it will only make things worse because people will not listen

However, feel free to give your input at the Hackernews thread: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42953508

maybe you can get dang'd this time :/

wow, the thread now refuses to load!

it just gives a "Sorry." error

tomman: I may have caused it actually with my recent visits to WhatWG and Let's Encrypt

HN has been kinda screwy tonight

ah, it now loaded, 185 comments so far

I'll be back in a few trahs needs to go out

most of the comments are unrelated "CF blocks me on Firefox/Chromium under Linux", the good ol' "Pale Moon has unfixed security issues because it's a old Firefox fork" FUD, and people justifying its usage of Clownflare because "the other half of the Internet are bots attacking my website"

unfortently i don't have any biohazard bags for html5 stuff so it will have to stay in place

tomman: it is a FACT Pale Moon is occasionally TOO security patched because the patches bust Pale Moon functioning

these people don't have a fuckin clue

> The Cloudflare tool does not complete its verifications, resulting in an endless "Verifying..." loop and thus none of the websites in question can be accessed. All you get to see is Cloudflare.

FWIW the error console yields some noise

> ReferenceError: BigInt is not defined

...wait, that one wasn't there 10 minutes ago

> TypeError: k[l] is undefined

that one however is always there, always unhelpful

also, a bunch of CSP errors

but I guess those ones are intentional

amazingly the Send Feedback link (when it eventually renders) DO work as intended

you get a intentionally vague form where you can only select what problem you have, a "I give my consent to send diag info" checkbox, and a Submit button

sometimes I get some warnings for unexpected NaN values

...ah, those come directly from devtools, so I guess unrelated noise

So... Turnsickle™ requires BigInt, absolutely, for no goddamned reason today

wonder if the k[i] undefined error is related

> Turnstile Widget seem to have crashed: oz4c4

ohohoho~!

tomman: i said that was likely and that the non-bigint codepath may crash if given similar garbage data

or whatever

in seamonkey

needs tested

Sometimes I don't even get the BigInt errors on devtools

it's... random-ish

what I did learned is that eventually Turnsickle may crash: "Turnstile Widget seem to have crashed:"

no stacktrace, just a 5-character varying code

nsITobin: in any case there is no BigInt support yet on the nightlies

tomman: but the function that got the null check in Pale Moon also has a non-bigint version with a nullcheck added that function is in seamonkey and may crash if fed garbage data just no one ever has..

also tomman I chimed in on hackernews but it may not be what you were expecting unless you have picked up that I really only have ONE conversation ever and it streams across everything I connect to LOL

and never actually ends

it merely flows through topics bending back for any unresolved

its like how i communicate most of the time

stops here geos on in #binaryoutcast comes back spreads to whomever I am challenging comes back.. That is why I think I need to try .. harder than I did today to break the habit..

I have been having a never ending conversation for 15 years it seems

started when I showed up here

i think

strange to think about though

the more I poke at that bastard Turnstile, the more inconsistent behavior I get

sometimes it goes away fast, but instead it triggers the endless page reload loop

sometimes i get the BigInt error, sometimes don't

sometimes it gets stuck for long enough to show the "Stuck? Send feedback" link that nobody will read at CF's HQ

sometimes it... internally "crashes", but no backtrace is logged

what I've yet to get tonight is a clickable checkbox

when the widget goes away (either because it exits or crashes), you get a spinning circle in its place

which eventually leads to another cycle on the endless page reload loop

the ONE consistent thing is that the Turnstile widget will not render unless poked by Devtools' inspector

and even then you cannot highlight its children elements within the document tree on on the Inspector tab

that one indeed is a very weird SM-specific bug

i am sure it is designed to be inconsistant so it can't be faked

i could like websites THINK seamonkey has customelements that's reletively easy but it would fail when trying to construct one

for example

ha, so the "Turnstile Widget seems to have crashed" message is not even a real crash

it just comes after some timeout elapses somewhere, about 60 seconds

the timeout triggers some event that deems that the widget must have "crashed", prints a message to console, and removes the widget, replacing it by a spinning circle, and eventually reloading the page

tomman: Yeah I remember that behavior from before

I made a small spreadsheet program

For POSIX and DOS compatible operating systems

get php running on DOS

and I will write some stuff LOL

modern php may be too memory hungry

php 4?

hi, looks like bookmarks restore does not work in 2.53.20

Anyone knows when it'll be fixed?

well, our plead for help at Hackernews has gained 100 more comments (mostly noise, sadly), and ZERO CF representatives

however, there was also some Clownflare outage reported: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42960291

and CF's head honcho is literally the first answer saying "oops, fixed!"

of course, customers first, end users can go and get eaten by a grue if they're Thinking Different™

frg_Away: looks like bookmarks restore does not work in 2.53.20

when is it going to be fixed?

it is already fixed. Next release. If you are on Linux macOS you can pick a prerelease build archive.seamonkey-project.org/nightly/index.html

Can do a Windows one too

I'm on windows

I used pre release from Bill's site but.. sad!

let me know when there's a good pre-release

thanks

which arch and language?

x 64 en-US?

yes

and x32 if exists

will upload mine in a few minutes to tobin site.

I need a url to his site :-)

just a minute

drat didn't bookmark the download url.

Needs the runtime pinballz.net/custom/frg/vc_redist.x64.exe

I need a zip for the portable

and I don't understand what's the last link

I prefer to wait for a good pre, like bill used to do

I only install after checking on the side

all the PlacesUtils functions that were removed from the stable .20 broke my addon

still needs to runtime.

wonder that these functions still worked.

^the runtime

what redist version is this?

not only worked, were also part of addon

Vs2015 to 2022. I usually build without the dlls.Less bloat and needed my other applications too usually.

Can do a bundled build but takes a while.

I think I have those redist installed

Will not start without. This is the latets but an older version usually works.

our signing key expired so not signed. Would probably have shipped 2,.53.20.1 otherwise.

Is this (resist) going to be required for next ver? what ver is it? 53.21 or?

ok, so, I'll test this on the side, w/o installing

and wait for a proper pre-release

where are they going to be now?

no official build will bundle the runtime files

LadybirdBrowser/ladybird #226 hmmm, the Ladybird devs somewhat documented what Turnstile wants

but release notes will mention the need?

2.523.21 will probably the last one shipping an x86 version

no mention for the BigInt stuff, as the issue was filled last year, tho

yes, I saw that from the last status meeting

I think its a mistake, but that's just me

you can still do your own builds. Crash rate is about 10 times higher and usually out of memory. Linux i686 is totally on the way out and hared to compile even now. Windows is not so much of a problem but really not one version still in service which is worth it. Anyone on 10 x86 is nuts ;)

^hard to compile

lol, not going to do builds, but thanks for the idea

as long as SM keeps going

Debian 13 finally removed i686, so for those the road is already over

Fedora even wants to kill early amd64 versions, but then... Fedora.

did you check the OS of the majority of SM users?

I still need to do some places stuff. More or less early 60 now but I don't expect much breakage from the remaining ones. The old api was on life support even in original 56 and much stuff broken.

I mean Linux/Windows/Mac

IceCold10: 3GB (which is usually the max you can get per process on stock Windows) is nowhere near enough for the Modern Web :(

Is this a pre-warning for the next break of my addons? :-)

I did a few for bookmarks

ah, addons

back in about 15 years ago

worthy doing a inventory of your addons

and be on the hunt for possible regressions

or breakage

ewong is running the stats but from the crashes it seems x86 is the minority. With the new Linux builder system requirements unfortunately became too high too. Basically no official i686 distribution left where you could run it.

I'm asking in general, not architecture

just curious

yes, tomman, I have a way of doing this:

if the addon stopped working, I check... :-)

not the most professional but works for the lazy

run the error console and you will usually find what broke this time

yea, that's debug time (after)

but I'm curious about stats per OS in general

any numbers?

I don't have full up to date stats but I think Windows is the majority then Linux and even some macOS users. All in all probably a few 1000 only if even this high.

ouch

and to think netscape used to be a major player back in the day

so this is why Clownflare wants us dead :O

?

explain plz

news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42953508 this happens several times a year for us not using mainstream browsers

anyone uses libreWolf?

frg: wonder if I hit the stats, since I've been only using the nightlies for the good part of the last 3 years

tomman they don't care. This is usually not personal but just a corparate entity wanting to make money with as less cost as possible. Yeah for the good of the people too right....

ewong usually counts the try to update hits which is flaky at best. I usually run 3 instances on 2 computers. No telemetry phoning home to tell us that you use SeaMonkey.

IceCold10 did you ge the zip and exe?

I did, thanks

oki. Has the latest stuff in but mostly cZ changes.

thanks

need to see that Windows builds end up in the nighty archive too

sourceforge.net/p/forge/site-support/26494 oh boy, even SourceFail got Clownflared :/

> Yes, we have many custom rules to determine when to show a CloudFlare challenge, and modified some of them to avoid impact on Pale Moon users.

however... they at least pretend to care, unlike your average CF user!

FWIW, SourceForge works here, no clownwalls triggered

About 90mins ago, frg posted "2.523.21 will probably the last one shipping an x86 version"?? Version *2.523.21* ?? I'm guessing THAT could be a while off! A LONG while off!! ;-P

When might the Version number change to 3.xx.xx?? ;-)

Just assume 2.53.21 :)

Thought about 2.57 because weare almost at that full level without the bad stuff but in reality it doesn't make much of a dent whatever we call it. 2.x will stay internally for add-on compatibility for sure.

Assumed, FRG .... but it provided an entry point for my real question ..... When will you guys move to Ver 3.xx?? ..... Yeah, I suppose 2.53.21 still indicates DEVELOPMENT *IS* occuring. ;-)

3 is too low. We need to get ahead of chrome and call it 9999.01

and a daily release cycle for new fetaures. Help wanted!

hooray :thumbsup:

AH!! Agent 99!! Now there's some good memories. ;-

Frg-Away .... I would love to if I could ...... but I'm guessing you're just a little further down the road than DOS 6!! ;-)

Yews I still have DOS 2000 floppy images

DOS 2000? Never heard of it!!After DOS 6, I think

IBM Dos

I moved to Win 95/98 .... then a bit of Turbo Pascal .... and then I gave up Programming!! Becames a User!

Night!! Night!!

If it were not for SeaMonkey I would give up too. Not interested in becomis a test rabbit or private data donator.

Hey .... from what I read in the Win11 NG, that's pretty much what MicroSoft is wanting ..... All their Users to become Unpaid Beta Testers!!

it has been like that since Windows 8

in other news, the cake is a lie

Good morning #SeaMonkey

What should be the default for network.http.sendOriginHeader?

it defaults to 0 on a stock install here, but some sites will not work unless set to 1 (for example, one of my banks will throw a bogus error and break the login page with sendOriginHeader = 0)

line 1915 -- pref("network.http.sendOriginHeader", 0);

usage xr.thereisonlyxul.org/seamonkey-2.5…rotocol/http/nsHttpChannel.cpp#8626

there is no 2 so why is it an int var

pref*

wonder if it is time to change that default value, since some sites now require it

cloudflare & PM & uBlock work-around

therube: we know

;)

SM doesn't crash, tho

i still contend the non-big int version of the method which seamonkey has may also need a nullcheck

it just bails out after someone asks to use a class that doesn't exist, like any other JS

of course, Clownflare doesn't even bother doing something as simple as typeof BigInt !== "undefined"

tomman: the non-bigint version of the method in Pale Moon also got a nullcheck this method is not being called incorrectly by cloudflare but may still be vulnerable but nothing has poked it like cf is doing to the bigint version UXP has

they just go and assume "it's a Mozilla product, therefore BigInt is a given, right?"

tomman: i can fake that

i can say I support something and it will be noop or crash

now yes everything is firefox

and old firefox

Wonder how Turnsickle would react to a noop BigInt implmementation

I guess it would still deem your browser as "unapproved"

including seamonkey thunderbird Pale Moon Borealis Interlink .. least it is better than what google thinks which is we are all browser toolbars

:D

Greetings fellow Toolbar!

"Verify you're not a toolbar"

here we are a bunch of toolbars in a toolbox

tomman: yeah basically

when will inhuman machines demanding proof we are human will just piss people off enough to do away with it

nsITobin I think the header stuff came up before. I think i didn't backport enough for 2 to be safe. Maybe 1.

wip doesn't crash either with BigInt enabled but clownflare still dislikes it.

weird, I now got a very unexpected behavior from Turnsickle

...very rare times it will render a QR code instead of the CF logo

the QR code when scanned contains... a ID (maybe a Ray ID? But different from the one at the bottom of the page)

managed to reproduce it twice

...why even render a QR there!?

did they wanted to Rickroll us!?

well it is clear they know who and what these browsers are and are now by policy discrinimating against it judging by a consistant pattern whenever mentioned not just Pale Moon but others

FWIW our plea for help at HN is still at the frontpage (now ranked 20th), with almost 1100 votes and 369 comments

but it's outranked by "doing stupid stuff with AI and PDFs" (ranked 6th) by slightly more votes albeit less comments

the only other frontpage history with more comments is "WB dumped a bunch of old bad movies for free at YT", with half the votes but over 400 comments

any site showing qr codes just wants to show the world how hip and mobile centric they are.

...oh, and the irrelevant opinions on software dev from some rando (29th ranked)

ha, ironically when Denso invented the QR Code, they only envisioned its use for tracking car parts :D

well for mobile there are not many other options. I just dislike this when no other link is provided. Totally useless on a destop.

nsITobin when I upload files to your site what is the public url again? I put up a Windows build but forgot to bookmark the last time for downloads.

seafiles.thereisonlyxul.org/ since you are gonna be an admin you are set at the webroot.. your folder is in people/frg

so seafiles.thereisonlyxul.org/people/frg

i have an index.txt gaurding autodir

I uploaded to the nightly dir. is this accessible?

yep

I'll update the symlinks .. i intend a script to read that text file to do it on cron just need to write a script

hmm >I thought I used this url. Need to check

seafiles also allows plain http as well

yup must have mistyped it: seafiles.thereisonlyxul.org/nightly…3.21b1pre.en-US.win64.installer.exe

;)

thanks again

i been paying for this server specifically for three years and did nothing with it thank you for getting some use out of it

I am pretty sure SeaMonkey e.V. can cover the costs if you want. Ask IanN_Away.

This is one of two servers I have that I got overspec'd to make up for the overhead of going from openvz to kvm these two servers are irreplaceable but I pay 15 per with my small dns/irc server which I pay 7 for a month.. Obviously I am gonna pay for it if i can even if it sits idle but I will keep it in mind should the situation get more uncertain.

Afterburst really is a great host.. decent prices.. will get you stuff and help when you ask but otherwise unmanaged and rather predictably stable and they let you alone more or less to do your stuff.

I really want to improve the MXR experience though like getting search results sorted by path if not something smerter get more parts of it moved to PHP etc.. I mean my coat of paint and php cgirunner has done a lot.. but yeah I dunno if I can even make it run on anything past EL8

while I finally figured out glimpse with some minor help to keep that going .. PHP5 is not being kept .. as static as has been in recent distros..

sorry Perl5

anyway I should do some stuffs today aside from move a symbolic link LOL

already ssh'd in no excuse!

dropped to 30th place, about to go away from front page :/

also the comment thread is depressing

yeah it is

I mean i think I defended my self but that wasn't why I posted I posted to preemtively kill the old and insecure mantra and it just plays out anyway

you got a fanboy, at least :D

really going to show there is no real talking at these people anymore

(that Dalewyn guy almost always get downvoted to oblivion at HN, BTW)

I mean he didn't even bother to cite the updated version of events as Moonchild tells it

But yeah, over half of the comments are "I run web sites/servers/etc and I absolutely need the DDoS protection, and I don't care about the 0.1%ers"

I don't accept older drafts of fanfics about me I want the bleeding edge.. I am sure by now I completely wiped every Pale Moon server before I left causing Moonchild to have to recode everything from sheer memory

I should really create an HN account and empty the rage within my soul there, but then I would be downvoted and dang'd in minutes

not gonna give them that luxury~

tomman: write for Binary Outcast.. only reason I stopped was one rage writer was boring

tomman: but at some point gotta ask is raging at the machine really gonna do much when the machine is raging its self..

And we're officially dead at HN, now buried at page 3, position 78 :/

well blame me

Zero. Clownflare. Answers.

most do

nah

;)

But I officially lost any respect I could have left towards Clownflare CEO

which DID responded on another unrelated CF thread the same day

he MUST have seen ours when checking out HN (he is a regular reader and doesn't like negative criticism that much)

but... I guess his lawyers told him "don't"

Or he just hate us

news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42960708 this is him

well elon has my social security and medicare/medicaid information and i called him out before trump was elected and the techleft also hates me so I am good and fucked.. it is sorda liberating

on twitter*

apparently some of the zillion services they run (and on which Hackernews heavily relies on) had a minor outage, people complained at HN long after the outage ended

and the CEO apologized briefly

so i may not be HIGH on the list.. but rest assured I am ON the list

.. it's nice to be included

but then... this is a paid service, and the ones complaining were paid customers :/

it is a race.. between trump/elon gutting federal benefits and grants.. elon being thrown out and trump being perpetually blocked.. and as elon works his personal enemies list I signed up for

> The silence from CloudFlare staff is rather deafening, especially as they commented on the (newer) outage post.

someone noticed, not just me :/

community.cloudflare.com/t/disappoi…ing-of-less-popular-browsers/766860 how lovely, a Paying Customer™ complaining for us

thread locked by CF staff in 3... 2... 1...

WOW

the Wine AppDB now opens!

I mean, no Clownflare firewall!

let's go

dunno what happened, maybe someone backtracked?

2-3 hours ago it was still brickwalled by Executive Order of Clownflare

but now it just.. lets me in

time to file some testdata before CF notices!